Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

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Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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I rarely delve into the Islamic faith or any of its elements; however, I did happen upon the following which I found rather interesting.

Please know that the events related below don't appear to mark Muhammad as a pedophile as the term is psychiatricly understood, but rather in it's more colloquial usage as a child sexual molester.

"Evidence that Muhammad was a pedophile.

For the Western mind, perhaps the most disturbing fact about Islam is that its founder had a sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl. Because of this, it has become increasingly popular in some circles to refer to the Prophet of Islam as a "pedophile." This is, of course, extremely offensive to Muslims, who view Muhammad as the ideal servant of God and as the greatest example of what a man should strive to be. Nevertheless, Muhammad’s relationship with a young girl presents a problem for Muslims, especially for those who want to share their faith with others.


The evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the nine-year-old Aisha is too strong to be ignored.


The problem with the selective and carefully edited defense just given (other than the complete lack of references) is that it ignores the numerous accounts we now possess which record Aisha’s age when Muhammad consummated his marriage to her. Many of these accounts are from Aisha herself. Indeed, the evidence for Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha is as strong as the evidence for just about any other fact in Islam. We have copious traditions relating Muhammad’s marriage proposal when Aisha was six or seven years old, as well as his consummation of that marriage when she was nine:

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.
Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

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ASSESSMENT: While the evidence isn’t enough to condemn Muhammad as a "pedophile," his sexual relationship with Aisha is unacceptable.

Muhammad has been accused of pedophilia in numerous writings, sermons, and conversations. We have seen that the earliest Muslim traditions offer support for this view. However, the evidence sustaining the charge of pedophilia is perhaps too limited to warrant such a harsh conclusion. We know that Muhammad had a sexual relationship with a young girl, and that this was reprehensible. Yet we must take cultural differences into consideration in formulating an accurate appraisal of a person’s character. In Muhammad’s society, sexual intercourse was acceptable when a girl reached menses, and Muhammad may have waited until Aisha had reached this age. (Note: There’s no good historical evidence that Muhammad waited for Aisha to reach menses. However, I think it’s important to be generous in our interpretations as much as possible, so I’m willing to grant, for the sake of argument, that Aisha had reached puberty.)

Similarly, we don’t have enough information to call Muhammad a "pervert." While Muhammad’s sexual acts may seem startling, we don’t know enough about the nature of these acts to condemn him as a sexual deviant or a predator.

Nevertheless, Muslims are too hasty in dismissing Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha. We can’t simply ignore a prophet’s marriage to a nine-year-old girl. Muslims view Muhammad as the highest example of a moral life, but his marriage to Aisha conflicts with that view. If they want to put Muhammad forward as the standard of morality, Muslims need to come to terms with the many questionable things Muhammad did, as well as the awful impact of these actions."
source



So, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?

Your thoughts?


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Last edited by Miles on Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #81

Post by Diogenes »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:42 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:55 pmSo, do you think taking "cultural differences into consideration" is enough to absolve an adult from having sex with a nine year-old (fourth grade) child?
Of course I do. It's 100% culture and 0% objective morality.
Nonsense! If an entire culture thinks it's just fine for an adult to stick his penis inside a 9 year old girl, than the entire culture is perverted. Yes, some cultures believed in cannibalism and child sacrifice, does that make it right? Even in much of the American culture today, as depicted in movies, it's OK to assault someone if he insults you or your wife. That does not make it right. A real man knows when to resist the harmful, hurtful aspects of his culture.
The Golden Rule is the principle of treating others as one wants to be treated. Various expressions of this rule can be found in the tenets of most religions and creeds through the ages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
This universal principle of reciprocity and compassion is even seen in monkeys.
Were not Arabs, even in the 6th and 7th Centuries, as sophisticated and moral as monkeys? ;) Or do they get a pass because their entire culture was misogynist? Treating women as 2d class citizens or sex objects without feelings and autonomy grows out of bullying. Men and their cultures do it because they think they can get away with it.
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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

Post #82

Post by Miles »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:28 pm [Replying to Miles in post #79]
Still, what can rhe Lost Gospels be, but the apocrypha ?
There are no other ancient gospels, but the canonized and the apocryphal
So, which of the 55+ apocryphal gospels says "Jesus frolicked nude with young boys"? The "Gospel of Jesus' Wife" ? The "Gospel of Hesychius" ? Or perhaps the "Gospel of the Secret Supper" ?

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

Post #83

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Miles wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:09 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:28 pm [Replying to Miles in post #79]
Still, what can rhe Lost Gospels be, but the apocrypha ?
There are no other ancient gospels, but the canonized and the apocryphal
So, which of the 55+ apocryphal gospels says "Jesus frolicked nude with young boys"? The "Gospel of Jesus' Wife" ? The "Gospel of Hesychius" ? Or perhaps the "Gospel of the Secret Supper" ?

.
That would be exactly my question, yet I suspect our pal confuses Jesus with Oscar Wilde!

The "or" in the OP confuses also! Or what exactly is the difference between a pedophilian and a child molester?
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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #84

Post by Purple Knight »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:22 pm Nonsense! If an entire culture thinks it's just fine for an adult to stick his penis inside a 9 year old girl, than the entire culture is perverted.
In chimps, the children engage in sexual acts in play, and nobody cares. Human cultures - mostly - developed to exclude children from sex for no more reason than our own egotism.

...No wait, not egotism. I meant our big heads.

Our closest relatives are ready when they're ready. If a penis goes in her, and she's not ready, it will be nothing; she won't become pregnant.

Humans are different. We need all the size we can get, because when a young girl is "ready" and she gets pregnant, she may well die of it.
Diogenes wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:22 pmYes, some cultures believed in cannibalism and child sacrifice, does that make it right? Even in much of the American culture today, as depicted in movies, it's OK to assault someone if he insults you or your wife. That does not make it right. A real man knows when to resist the harmful, hurtful aspects of his culture.
I want to think there's objective morality too.
Diogenes wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:22 pmOr do they get a pass because their entire culture was misogynist?
This is really The Question, capitals T and Q. I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes. I think it's theirs to define what a person is and who has full rights in their culture.

They can be wrong. I have no problem saying the American South was wrong. But there's a catch to saying that, which I have to accept, that simply comes with the territory:

I could be wrong too.

I either have to say the guy who always wants to include more and more in the pool of things with full rights is the most moral until we have shrimp and trees and even rocks in there, or I have to just stand on my own judgment, disagree with PETA, disagree with the American slavers, and find myself somewhere in the middle with no illusions that I have the higher ground to impose my thoughts about it on anyone. And knowing I can't, I have to say, they should live as they see fit, and oppress who they see fit, because I do the same. I just ate some Chester's Chicken and it was delicious.

However, people who think females have full rights have every right to live as they wish too.

That just means we live separately from those who don't.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

Post #85

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #78]

Sorry but questionable according to whom and acording to what ?

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #86

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #81]

Yes, indeed you are the one treating women as 2d class citizens or sex objects without feelings and autonomy since you never considered biological or sociological differences.

You see, I made questions that never gets answered and I hope that one day someone will have the guts to answer them, but I suspect it, and I lost hope, but let me repeat,

What is the standard to say, a female is ready to get married?

What is the standard to call a person a pedophile?

What is the use of biological maturity, and what is the meaning of being mature?

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester?

Post #87

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #83]
Humans are different. We need all the size we can get, because when a young girl is "ready" and she gets pregnant, she may well die of it.
When we can define a girl as "ready" and what is the basis to say it?
This is really The Question, capitals T and Q. I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes. I think it's theirs to define what a person is and who has full rights in their culture.

They can be wrong. I have no problem saying the American South was wrong. But there's a catch to saying that, which I have to accept, that simply comes with the territory:

I could be wrong too.

I either have to say the guy who always wants to include more and more in the pool of things with full rights is the most moral until we have shrimp and trees and even rocks in there, or I have to just stand on my own judgment, disagree with PETA, disagree with the American slavers, and find myself somewhere in the middle with no illusions that I have the higher ground to impose my thoughts about it on anyone. And knowing I can't, I have to say, they should live as they see fit, and oppress who they see fit, because I do the same. I just ate some Chester's Chicken and it was delicious.

However, people who think females have full rights have every right to live as they wish too.

That just means we live separately from those who don't.
And this is the biggest problem, since you are saying that you are right and the other person is wrong. You are saying that the most powerful can do whatever he wants since he has the power, and with the same idea, you can say that "Hitler" was free to do what he wanted to do, and we can disagree with him, but he had the full right to do it.

That's exactly what we Muslims try to avoid, we have standards to judge every act and put a logical explanation to our judgment, because we don't use feelings to judge things.

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #88

Post by Diogenes »

mms20102 wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 11:19 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #81]

Yes, indeed you are the one treating women as 2d class citizens or sex objects without feelings and autonomy since you never considered biological or sociological differences.

You see, I made questions that never gets answered and I hope that one day someone will have the guts to answer them, but I suspect it, and I lost hope, but let me repeat,

What is the standard to say, a female is ready to get married?

What is the standard to call a person a pedophile?

What is the use of biological maturity, and what is the meaning of being mature?
Why not quote what I wrote? Because it had nothing to do with "treating women as 2d class citizens?" Here's what I actually wrote in post #81:

Nonsense! If an entire culture thinks it's just fine for an adult to stick his penis inside a 9 year old girl, than the entire culture is perverted. Yes, some cultures believed in cannibalism and child sacrifice, does that make it right? Even in much of the American culture today, as depicted in movies, it's OK to assault someone if he insults you or your wife. That does not make it right. A real man knows when to resist the harmful, hurtful aspects of his culture.
The Golden Rule is the principle of treating others as one wants to be treated. Various expressions of this rule can be found in the tenets of most religions and creeds through the ages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
This universal principle of reciprocity and compassion is even seen in monkeys.
Were not Arabs, even in the 6th and 7th Centuries, as sophisticated and moral as monkeys? ;) Or do they get a pass because their entire culture was misogynist? Treating women as 2d class citizens or sex objects without feelings and autonomy grows out of bullying. Men and their cultures do it because they think they can get away with it.
The hero rises above the rabble and its culture.
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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #89

Post by mms20102 »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #88]
What is the standard to say, a female is ready to get married?

What is the standard to call a person a pedophile?

What is the use of biological maturity, and what is the meaning of being mature?
You quoted them yet you never answered them just like the rest of the people because you have no answer but I hate repeating the same words so if you have no answer just say you have no answer don't do the same claims that leads no where
Why not quote what I wrote? Because it had nothing to do with "treating women as 2d class citizens?" Here's what I actually wrote in post #81:

Nonsense! If an entire culture thinks it's just fine for an adult to stick his penis inside a 9 year old girl, than the entire culture is perverted. Yes, some cultures believed in cannibalism and child sacrifice, does that make it right? Even in much of the American culture today, as depicted in movies, it's OK to assault someone if he insults you or your wife. That does not make it right. A real man knows when to resist the harmful, hurtful aspects of his culture.
Here is how you treat women as second-class citizens first of all your objection was sticking a penis on the 9-year-old girl
First according to science was that 9-year-old girl mature at the time of marriage or not and what was the marrying age of males and females at that time?
second, you have no problem having this done to any female that's above that age and you are open as long as there is consent am I right?
Third we Arabs have our own rules over our own land so who are you to tell us what to do?
Fourth we Arabs didn't invent nightclubs for males to stick their penis in females just to satisfy ourselves.
Fifth we Arabs consider it a huge shame to do fornication and we don't have what is called a "girlfriend".
Sixth we Arabs consider marriage as the only way to be able to stick a penis inside any girl
Seventh we Arabs consider "abortion due to unwanted children" to be a complete murder but you don't
Eighth In 1880, the ages of consent were set at 10 or 12 in most states does this ring a bell on what was the age before that time? do you even realize that prophet Muhammed died in 632 that's even 1200 years before you made a law to set the age of marriage?
Ninth do you know that you did set laws to prevent the massive increase of child abuse while we never had such laws because we didn't have people thinking about marrying children?

From all the above when you want to discuss something about other nations be aware of the sociological difference and time differences and cultural differences and don't impose your viewpoint as true only because you see it as true.

one last thing
Men and their cultures do it because they think they can get away with it.
Does this mean you are a woman?

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Re: Muhammad, a pedophile or child molester

Post #90

Post by JoeyKnothead »

mms20102 wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 11:19 pm What is the standard to say, a female is ready to get married?
A few come to mind...
1. Informed consent
2. Not coerced
3. 18 or above (a bit arbitrary, but for an answer)
4. She's rearranged everything in the house and now you can't find anything unless she tells you where she put it as she rolls her eyes at how dumb you are for not knowing
What is the standard to call a person a pedophile?
Perving on a 9 year old sure fits the description, though I personally hold to 18 or older to not feel like a perv.
What is the use of biological maturity, and what is the meaning of being mature?
It's a rare 9 year old girl who, while 'mature' enough to give birth, is old enough to be expected to do it.

Frankly, I find attempts to try to define this stuff a bit offensive - just stay away from little girls and quit trying to justify the actions of a grown man hooking up with a little girl.

Just quit it.
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