Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Diogenes
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Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Diogenes »

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #2

Post by Kylie »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:49 pm
In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?
I think first and foremost we need to establish some protocol by which to determine whether some particular belief is delusional or not. Without such a clear definition, people can argue both sides, since their personal definition is subjective. We need something standardized for all people to use in this discussion.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Diogenes »

Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:15 am
I think first and foremost we need to establish some protocol by which to determine whether some particular belief is delusional or not. Without such a clear definition, people can argue both sides, since their personal definition is subjective. We need something standardized for all people to use in this discussion.
Yes, we do. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has suggested standard definitions for delusions, yet...
"Empirical data supporting a relationship between religious beliefs, superstitious beliefs and delusion-like beliefs remain sparse, even though these 3 types of beliefs have a common point: the fact that they rest on little or no proof."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24337001/

DSM-III and IV defined delusions as “false beliefs due to incorrect inference about external reality.”
DSM-5 says “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.”

I'd suggest that believing in ghosts, angels, demons, gods and the like fit either definition and are delusional, according to three editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
If a person claims they can actually see or hear one of these supernatural beings, then there's prob'ly something even more seriously wrong.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by historia »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:59 pm
I'd suggest that believing in ghosts, angels, demons, gods and the like fit either definition and are delusional, according to three editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
Except that the DSM III & IV definition explicitly excludes religious doctrines, making your argument on that score self-defeating.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #5

Post by William »

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
The question appears to be a loaded one as it steers toward one of two conclusions.

The better question has to be:
Q: Are All Religious Beliefs Delusional?

and with that, one can analyze the data without the leading bias interfering with the results...

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #6

Post by William »

[Replying to historia in post #4]
Diogenes: I'd suggest that believing in ghosts, angels, demons, gods and the like fit either definition and are delusional, according to three editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.


Historia: Except that the DSM III & IV definition explicitly excludes religious doctrines, making your argument on that score self-defeating.
If there is no science accompanying this accordance, it is likely the result of conformation bias.

I follow the idea that Jung's Archetypes give us enough verification that ghosts, angels, demons, gods and the like are real influences, and every individual who delves deep enough into their Self [for the purpose of understanding] can start to appreciate the connection therein and even learn to interact with the Archetypes for the betterment of said Self.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #7

Post by Kylie »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:59 pm
Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:15 am
I think first and foremost we need to establish some protocol by which to determine whether some particular belief is delusional or not. Without such a clear definition, people can argue both sides, since their personal definition is subjective. We need something standardized for all people to use in this discussion.
Yes, we do. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has suggested standard definitions for delusions, yet...
"Empirical data supporting a relationship between religious beliefs, superstitious beliefs and delusion-like beliefs remain sparse, even though these 3 types of beliefs have a common point: the fact that they rest on little or no proof."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24337001/

DSM-III and IV defined delusions as “false beliefs due to incorrect inference about external reality.”
DSM-5 says “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.”

I'd suggest that believing in ghosts, angels, demons, gods and the like fit either definition and are delusional, according to three editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
If a person claims they can actually see or hear one of these supernatural beings, then there's prob'ly something even more seriously wrong.
Well, this causes problems.

If we go by the first definition, "“false beliefs due to incorrect inference about external reality,” then we have to first prove that a religious belief is either correct or incorrect before we can say whether it is delusional or not. Good luck getting agreement there.

If we go by the second definition, “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence,” then we could have a particular religious belief, and if one adherent to that belief changes their belief while another does not, how do we determine if that belief is delusional or not? How can it be a delusion for one person, but not for another?

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #8

Post by Diogenes »

Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:25 pm
Diogenes wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:59 pm
Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:15 am
I think first and foremost we need to establish some protocol by which to determine whether some particular belief is delusional or not. Without such a clear definition, people can argue both sides, since their personal definition is subjective. We need something standardized for all people to use in this discussion.
Yes, we do. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has suggested standard definitions for delusions, yet...
"Empirical data supporting a relationship between religious beliefs, superstitious beliefs and delusion-like beliefs remain sparse, even though these 3 types of beliefs have a common point: the fact that they rest on little or no proof."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24337001/

DSM-III and IV defined delusions as “false beliefs due to incorrect inference about external reality.”
DSM-5 says “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.”

I'd suggest that believing in ghosts, angels, demons, gods and the like fit either definition and are delusional, according to three editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
If a person claims they can actually see or hear one of these supernatural beings, then there's prob'ly something even more seriously wrong.
Well, this causes problems.

If we go by the first definition, "“false beliefs due to incorrect inference about external reality,” then we have to first prove that a religious belief is either correct or incorrect before we can say whether it is delusional or not. Good luck getting agreement there.

If we go by the second definition, “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence,” then we could have a particular religious belief, and if one adherent to that belief changes their belief while another does not, how do we determine if that belief is delusional or not? How can it be a delusion for one person, but not for another?
As I quoted, religious beliefs are not falsifiable; they exist in a realm beyond empirical study. I would not expect agreement, considering those who hold religious beliefs do not consider the scientific method as reliable as subjective thought.

A genuine belief in unicorns is delusional for all. Your question, "How can it be a delusion for one person, but not for another?" assumes facts not in evidence. The belief in angels, gods, and talking kumquats is delusional for all persons that believe any of it.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #9

Post by Diogenes »

historia wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:55 pm
Diogenes wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:59 pm
I'd suggest that believing in ghosts, angels, demons, gods and the like fit either definition and are delusional, according to three editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
Except that the DSM III & IV definition explicitly excludes religious doctrines, making your argument on that score self-defeating.
You are begging the question and ignoring the OP which, essentially, asks "Why should religious beliefs, that have historically been considered delusional, be granted an exemption considering they fit the DSM definitions for delusions, absent the exemption. Beliefs in the supernatural, whether religious or not, fit the definition of “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.” They are not based on empirical observation, but on childhood indoctrination ;) or 'teaching' if you will. ;)

Perhaps that is why the DSM makes the exception. I agree there is a difference between believing something absurd that was drilled into the victim's head during formative years, and suddenly believing a unique, personal supernatural event or being that NO ONE shares. Yes, a difference, but both appear to be delusional. Why is a religious delusion granted an exemption simply because it is widely shared?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #10

Post by Kylie »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:23 pm
Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:25 pm
Diogenes wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:59 pm
Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:15 am
I think first and foremost we need to establish some protocol by which to determine whether some particular belief is delusional or not. Without such a clear definition, people can argue both sides, since their personal definition is subjective. We need something standardized for all people to use in this discussion.
Yes, we do. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has suggested standard definitions for delusions, yet...
"Empirical data supporting a relationship between religious beliefs, superstitious beliefs and delusion-like beliefs remain sparse, even though these 3 types of beliefs have a common point: the fact that they rest on little or no proof."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24337001/

DSM-III and IV defined delusions as “false beliefs due to incorrect inference about external reality.”
DSM-5 says “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.”

I'd suggest that believing in ghosts, angels, demons, gods and the like fit either definition and are delusional, according to three editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
If a person claims they can actually see or hear one of these supernatural beings, then there's prob'ly something even more seriously wrong.
Well, this causes problems.

If we go by the first definition, "“false beliefs due to incorrect inference about external reality,” then we have to first prove that a religious belief is either correct or incorrect before we can say whether it is delusional or not. Good luck getting agreement there.

If we go by the second definition, “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence,” then we could have a particular religious belief, and if one adherent to that belief changes their belief while another does not, how do we determine if that belief is delusional or not? How can it be a delusion for one person, but not for another?
As I quoted, religious beliefs are not falsifiable; they exist in a realm beyond empirical study. I would not expect agreement, considering those who hold religious beliefs do not consider the scientific method as reliable as subjective thought.

A genuine belief in unicorns is delusional for all. Your question, "How can it be a delusion for one person, but not for another?" assumes facts not in evidence. The belief in angels, gods, and talking kumquats is delusional for all persons that believe any of it.
Then it seems that you are simply saying, "If we define religious beliefs as delusional, then religious beliefs are delusional."

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