Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #11

Post by Diogenes »

Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:57 pm
Then it seems that you are simply saying, "If we define religious beliefs as delusional, then religious beliefs are delusional."
Not at all. The question is why does the DSM make an exception for delusional beliefs that are religious?


Note from the OP, "... the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether." Why the exemption since religious beliefs in the supernatural otherwise fit the definition of delusional?

Perhaps it depends upon whose religious beliefs we consider. Doesn't the belief that Muhammad rode a winged horse to Jerusalem, through seven heavens, hell, and paradise, into the presence of God, and back to Earth, appear delusional to anyone not Muslim?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #12

Post by William »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #11]
Doesn't the belief that Muhammad rode a winged horse to Jerusalem, through seven heavens, hell, and paradise, into the presence of God, and back to Earth, appear delusional to anyone not Muslim?

Why would you think that?

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #13

Post by Kylie »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:21 pm
Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:57 pm
Then it seems that you are simply saying, "If we define religious beliefs as delusional, then religious beliefs are delusional."
Not at all. The question is why does the DSM make an exception for delusional beliefs that are religious?


Note from the OP, "... the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether." Why the exemption since religious beliefs in the supernatural otherwise fit the definition of delusional?

Perhaps it depends upon whose religious beliefs we consider. Doesn't the belief that Muhammad rode a winged horse to Jerusalem, through seven heavens, hell, and paradise, into the presence of God, and back to Earth, appear delusional to anyone not Muslim?
No, the question, at least according to your OP, is whether religious beliefs should be considered delusional. Now you've skipped past that question, assumed that they are, and are on the question of why an exception is being made.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #14

Post by historia »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:40 pm
You are begging the question and ignoring the OP which, essentially, asks "Why should religious beliefs, that have historically been considered delusional, be granted an exemption considering they fit the DSM definitions for delusions, absent the exemption.
Maybe you intended to ask that, but that's not the question you actually posed in the OP. So, rather than yelling at everyone in 12 point font about how we've somehow missed the question, you might want to just respectfully let the rest of us know that you are clarifying the question under consideration.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #15

Post by Diogenes »

Kylie wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:30 am
Diogenes wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:21 pm
Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:57 pm
Then it seems that you are simply saying, "If we define religious beliefs as delusional, then religious beliefs are delusional."
Not at all. The question is why does the DSM make an exception for delusional beliefs that are religious?


Note from the OP, "... the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether." Why the exemption since religious beliefs in the supernatural otherwise fit the definition of delusional?

Perhaps it depends upon whose religious beliefs we consider. Doesn't the belief that Muhammad rode a winged horse to Jerusalem, through seven heavens, hell, and paradise, into the presence of God, and back to Earth, appear delusional to anyone not Muslim?
No, the question, at least according to your OP, is whether religious beliefs should be considered delusional. Now you've skipped past that question, assumed that they are, and are on the question of why an exception is being made.
Is logic now an arcane practice from the paleolithic era? The question in the OP is whether religious beliefs are delusional. The DSM says they are delusional, but for the exception. WHY make the exception?

I gave an example of what obviously appears to be a delusional belief, by every definition, but for the 'religion' exception:
Doesn't the belief that Muhammad rode a winged horse to Jerusalem, through seven heavens, hell, and paradise, into the presence of God, and back to Earth, appear delusional to anyone not Muslim?

To which I receive the question from William,
Why would you think that?
I am momentarily speechless. Who, besides maybe a Muslim, could possibly consider a man riding a mythical winged animal up to 'heaven,' then to six more 'heavens,' then to Hell, and back to Paradise, and finally to Earth anything but a delusional belief, but for the 'religion' exemption? If the Islamic claim does not appear absurd on its face, no amount of "man 'splaining" will be sufficient. It's even more silly than fiery chariots going to heaven, talking snakes and Noah's mythical boat. Image
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #16

Post by Kylie »

Diogenes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:26 am
Kylie wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:30 am
Diogenes wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:21 pm
Kylie wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:57 pm
Then it seems that you are simply saying, "If we define religious beliefs as delusional, then religious beliefs are delusional."
Not at all. The question is why does the DSM make an exception for delusional beliefs that are religious?


Note from the OP, "... the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether." Why the exemption since religious beliefs in the supernatural otherwise fit the definition of delusional?

Perhaps it depends upon whose religious beliefs we consider. Doesn't the belief that Muhammad rode a winged horse to Jerusalem, through seven heavens, hell, and paradise, into the presence of God, and back to Earth, appear delusional to anyone not Muslim?
No, the question, at least according to your OP, is whether religious beliefs should be considered delusional. Now you've skipped past that question, assumed that they are, and are on the question of why an exception is being made.
Is logic now an arcane practice from the paleolithic era? The question in the OP is whether religious beliefs are delusional. The DSM says they are delusional, but for the exception. WHY make the exception?

I gave an example of what obviously appears to be a delusional belief, by every definition, but for the 'religion' exception:
Doesn't the belief that Muhammad rode a winged horse to Jerusalem, through seven heavens, hell, and paradise, into the presence of God, and back to Earth, appear delusional to anyone not Muslim?

To which I receive the question from William,
Why would you think that?
I am momentarily speechless. Who, besides maybe a Muslim, could possibly consider a man riding a mythical winged animal up to 'heaven,' then to six more 'heavens,' then to Hell, and back to Paradise, and finally to Earth anything but a delusional belief, but for the 'religion' exemption? If the Islamic claim does not appear absurd on its face, no amount of "man 'splaining" will be sufficient. It's even more silly than fiery chariots going to heaven, talking snakes and Noah's mythical boat. Image
Okay, I'm not sure why you are having trouble following this.

The question "Are religious beliefs delusional?" and the question, "Why does the DSM make an exception for religious beliefs?" are two different questions.

If you want to discuss the second question, don't start a thread discussing the first> And don't get snarky and call people illogical for correctly pointing out that you started a thread about the first question, not the second one.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #17

Post by Diogenes »

Kylie wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:50 am Okay, I'm not sure why you are having trouble following this.

The question "Are religious beliefs delusional?" and the question, "Why does the DSM make an exception for religious beliefs?" are two different questions.

If you want to discuss the second question, don't start a thread discussing the first> And don't get snarky and call people illogical for correctly pointing out that you started a thread about the first question, not the second one.
:) I am not sure why you are having trouble following the idea that the two questions are very closely related, and that the second one is relevant to the OP. If you think it is not relevant, I suppose you could consult a moderator. The idea of starting a separate thread seems absurd, at least to me.
I do understand why you and Historia would be hesitant to address the question because there appears to be no good diagnostic reason to carve out an exception for religion, other than it is a very common belief for which there is no evidence.
For example, it seems reasonable to believe someone who actually beliefs the image below represents reality has a delusion.
Image
Does this one look any more likely? :)
Image
Last edited by Diogenes on Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #18

Post by William »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #15]
I gave an example of what obviously appears to be a delusional belief, by every definition, but for the 'religion' exception:
Doesn't the belief that Muhammad rode a winged horse to Jerusalem, through seven heavens, hell, and paradise, into the presence of God, and back to Earth, appear delusional to anyone not Muslim?

To which I receive the question from William,
Why would you think that?
I am momentarily speechless. Who, besides maybe a Muslim, could possibly consider a man riding a mythical winged animal up to 'heaven,' then to six more 'heavens,' then to Hell, and back to Paradise, and finally to Earth anything but a delusional belief, but for the 'religion' exemption? If the Islamic claim does not appear absurd on its face, no amount of "man 'splaining" will be sufficient.

It's even more silly than fiery chariots going to heaven, talking snakes and Noah's mythical boat.
Why would you think that the one is 'more silly' than the others?

Also;

Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
The question appears to be a loaded one as it steers toward one of two conclusions.
1: Yes, religious beliefs are delusional [with supporting evidence]
2: No, religious beliefs are not delusional. [also with supporting evidence]

The better question has to be:
Q: Are All Religious Beliefs Delusional?

and with that, one can analyze the data without the leading bias interfering with the results...

re your second question as to why religious mythology is an exception to the rule, the answer probably also comes from a position of bias as those who invent and agree to such rules might be heavily influenced by the mythological imagery to the extent where they lack understanding that the mythological imagery is simply a well intended interpretation of experiences had, which are not easily explainable to others, using whatever communication techniques available at the time of explanation.

For example, if a space-faring advanced specie were to display to an individual human mind from the stone-age period, a fully immersive holographic experience of compacted imagery showing how the universe began, and subsequently unfolded, the individual experiencing this would not be able to distinguish the holographic display from the normal reality he/she usually experiences. One would appear as real to the individual, as the other.
Further to that, any interpretation of the experience in the telling of it to his/her stone aged fellows, can only be attempted through use of analogy and those peoples understanding of form and function as it pertains to them - from their perspective in the dominant reality experience in said universe.

This is what religious mythology consists of, and as such, it is best not to take these as literal imagery but to understand these as approximations and utterances which are unable to describe
with any type of accuracy, using what device is available for them to convey experience.

When understood in this way, any alternate experience of such nature [not just religious-based ones] is limited [to being accurately explained] by the current devices used to convey explanations of experience.

Thus the OPQ - while focused upon the religious mythologies of individual experiences, can be asked of every alternate experience ever reported.

The answer to the OPQ would therefore, have to be "we currently do not have enough information to make a call on it".

Any literal beliefs in mythological imagery could be considered delusional.

For example, the teller of the experience might say something like "the best I can describe the manner in which I moved through layers of my experience was that it was similar to riding a horse or chariot, but there was no actual horse or chariot".

The listeners might conveniently forget that part of the tellers story, in subsequent retellings of it.

Contrary to that, the teller of the story might not explain that he/she is using analogy and simply declare "the manner in which I moved through layers of my experience was that I rode chariot" in which case it would not be a matter of delusion but rather a matter of veering away from the truth through deliberately misinforming the listeners through omittance.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #19

Post by William »

From the perspective of a full time activist atheist re "Religion is a mental illness"

from 00:40 - 2:56


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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #20

Post by Diogenes »

William wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:19 pm From the perspective of a full time activist atheist re "Religion is a mental illness"
:D Funny! No! No! No! I don't think religion people [sic] have a mental illness. I never said that. :) [I might think it, but I didn't say it] I just think actually believing a horse with a human head and wings flew Muhammad thru 7? really 7? heavens and then to hell and back is odd. [call me crazy :) ] There's also ZERO evidence for such nonsense. That qualifies it as a delusion... unless you say "I'm religious, so it's ok to believe a nutty thing." :)
Image
BTW, somehow this image reminds me of Donald Trump. :shock:
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