Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #21

Post by historia »

Diogenes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:47 pm
I am not sure why you are having trouble following the idea that the two questions are very closely related, and that the second one is relevant to the OP.
I don't think anyone is saying that the second question is irrelevant to the topic of the thread.

What we're noting here is that you had initially posed just the first question for discussion. And then, when folks started answering that first question, you started yelling at everyone for not addressing the second question, even though you had yet to pose the second question for discussion.
Diogenes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:47 pm
I do understand why you and Historia would be hesitant to address the question because there appears to be no good diagnostic reason to carve out an exception for religion
Except there's no such hesitancy on my part. We've just been delayed in discussing this second question because you got your knickers in a twist while asking it.

I think there are good reasons why the DSM does not view religious doctrines as delusions.

As the article that you cited in the OP notes, the clinical concern with delusion is less about the content of the belief itself and more about how and why the patient is holding it. A belief may be delusional if it is (a) arrived at on delusional grounds, (b) held without true insight, and (c) is causing problems in the patient's life.

Religious doctrines are not, in themselves, delusional because:

(a) Most people come to adhere to specific religious doctrines via the teachings of their community and culture -- which is a perfectly normal way in which people come to believe things -- rather than on delusional grounds or just out of the blue.

(b) Most religious adherents subscribe to religious doctrines with insight -- that is, they recognize that not everyone believes the same things they do. The Muslim who believes in Muhammad's night journey, for example, likely recognizes that people of other faiths don't share that belief.

(c) Finally, most religious adherents don't report that their beliefs are causing them problems in their personal and professional life. In fact, there is a considerable body of literature that shows a positive correlation between religiosity and improved mental health.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #22

Post by Diogenes »

historia wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:34 pm
Diogenes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:47 pm
I am not sure why you are having trouble following the idea that the two questions are very closely related, and that the second one is relevant to the OP.
I don't think anyone is saying that the second question is irrelevant to the topic of the thread.
That is exactly what Kylie said, twice, and you applauded.
What we're noting here is that you had initially posed just the first question for discussion. And then, when folks started answering that first question, you started yelling at everyone for not addressing the second question, even though you had yet to pose the second question for discussion.

Wrong. I simply posed the question in a different way and you started whining about YELLING, and you both made personal remarks. Using emphasis to help make a point is not 'yelling.'
Diogenes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:47 pm
I do understand why you and Historia would be hesitant to address the question because there appears to be no good diagnostic reason to carve out an exception for religion
Except there's no such hesitancy on my part. We've just been delayed in discussing this second question because you got your knickers in a twist while asking it.
Again with the personal remarks. Are your arguments so weak you have to resort to that? You've been here long enough to know better.

Back to the central issue, do you believe Elijah was actually carried up to 'heaven' in a fiery chariot? Do you actually believe in a global flood and that Noah got all the extant species in the entire world into an 'ark?'
I'm guessing you do not; that you understand these are myths, allegories that convey some deeper truth. But when someone actually believes these myths have a corresponding physical, literal reality, for which there is no evidence, does it not fit the definition of 'delusion,' absent the special pleading exemption?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #23

Post by William »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #20]

Yeah - you didn't read my posts or watch that video did you...

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #24

Post by William »

[Replying to historia in post #21]
What we're noting here is that you had initially posed just the first question for discussion. And then, when folks started answering that first question, you started yelling at everyone for not addressing the second question, even though you had yet to pose the second question for discussion.
Also to note, the accuracy of the first question was itself under question, and no answer or agreement forthcoming...
I think there are good reasons why the DSM does not view religious doctrines as delusions.
The video I posted is from an atheist activist and he points out what those good reasons are.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #25

Post by Kylie »

Diogenes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:47 pm
Kylie wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:50 am Okay, I'm not sure why you are having trouble following this.

The question "Are religious beliefs delusional?" and the question, "Why does the DSM make an exception for religious beliefs?" are two different questions.

If you want to discuss the second question, don't start a thread discussing the first> And don't get snarky and call people illogical for correctly pointing out that you started a thread about the first question, not the second one.
:) I am not sure why you are having trouble following the idea that the two questions are very closely related, and that the second one is relevant to the OP. If you think it is not relevant, I suppose you could consult a moderator. The idea of starting a separate thread seems absurd, at least to me.
I do understand why you and Historia would be hesitant to address the question because there appears to be no good diagnostic reason to carve out an exception for religion, other than it is a very common belief for which there is no evidence.
For example, it seems reasonable to believe someone who actually beliefs the image below represents reality has a delusion.
Image
Does this one look any more likely? :)
Image
I have no idea what you are going on about.

I'm an atheist. I do think that religious beliefs should be considered delusional, and I think that the exception made for them in the DSM is little more than an appeal to tradition.

I'm simply pointing out that you started this thread to address a specific question, and then almost immediately assumed the answer of that question and tried to make the thread to discussing that answer.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #26

Post by Bust Nak »

historia wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:34 pm ... because you got your knickers in a twist while asking it.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #27

Post by Purple Knight »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:49 pm The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
No, because it's the DSM's prerogative to say, and it specifically exempts religious beliefs.

However, to many atheists, this specific exemption smacks of a favouritism that arguably does not belong in any field that calls itself a science.

If Prot believes he's an alien without good evidence, and that he's headed back to K-PAX, he rots in an insane asylum, but if someone else believes with no or scant evidence that their body carries a soul that's going to Heaven after they die, they get a pass? One is forced to ask why. (Note that the story for K-PAX was written in 1995 when you could easily be committed just for being crazy, but since then the powers that be have decided it's better to only commit those who are both crazy and somehow dangerous, and this links to my final answer.)
Diogenes wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:49 pmA subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?
We can't tell and that's the point. I have a reputation for being logical but actually I'm very minorly superstitious. For example, I worry about religion even if it isn't true. I think that if you let it in, believe it, give it a place in your heart, it might have effects. I also think that to do something justice in a debate, you need to give it the credit of being true so I'm kind of walking the knife's edge with my own minor superstition, which is basically that as long as you absolutely know that Odin is a fantasy, Odin can't hurt you... but if you really believe in him, then maybe he can... even if he doesn't exist.

Should I rot in an asylum for this because I came up with it myself while someone who was taught it, perhaps by me, gets a pass? Well this would fit pretty well with our desire to punish deceivers and not the deceived. For example, cult leaders are crazy and the people they sway with their honeyed arguments are not. That sounds fair. But it's pretty much the only situation this holds for.

Final answer: I say we stop defining people as crazy because of what they believe. Religious beliefs shouldn't be considered delusional and neither should other beliefs because I do not get to decide who is right. It's just stigmatising people for the sake of stigmatising them if you're not going to lock them up. And do religious people and Prot deserve to be locked up? Gawd no. The place to call them irrational is on the debate floor where they can respond to you, not in the DSM, which would, in a fair debate, count as an inappropriate authority and an ad hominem. Look, this book I found says you're crazy so you must be wrong. Pfft, sounds fallacy-laden to me.

I think it's beyond hubris to suggest 1) that we can't be wrong and 2) that even if we're not wrong and we happen to know 100% of the truth, that people can't have a different experience that would steer a perfectly sane and logical person the other way. Being taught that something is true by those you trust is only one example of such an experience. You might believe in ghosts because you repeatedly observed some phenomenon that leads you to believe that. And Prot might be an alien. Even if I do know better than him (and I might not) what people are committed for won't be some random genius opinion, what it will actually be is consensus, and that's so, so bad... it should literally make you cringe. Because that is tantamount to a free pass to bully people by calling them crazy and the DSM backing you up if you have the majority opinion. Society shouldn't work like that.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #28

Post by Purple Knight »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:21 pmThe question is why does the DSM make an exception for delusional beliefs that are religious?
And the answer seems to be that it (the DSM, the psychological community) wants to dictate rationality from on high, but whoops, they inadvertently cast their net too wide and defined something like 90% of the world as delusional, and they can't have that, that would never fly, so they need to give the majority an exception so they can continue to harass and bully the minority.

See, the problem is this first bit: Some, dictating that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

It should be pretty obvious now that I've pointed it out, that this is emblematic of power-grubbing, dictatorial behaviour and should be stamped out decisively whenever it peeks its ugly head out of the scum-sucking gutter.

A group that rises because they give the majority a free pass to bully the minority? Remind you of anything? It ought to. It's Nazi-ish behaviour and I spit on it whenever I see it.
Kylie wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:34 pmI'm an atheist. I do think that religious beliefs should be considered delusional, and I think that the exception made for them in the DSM is little more than an appeal to tradition.
I think it's not simply an appeal to tradition but nefarious in nature. Blanket declarations with officially stamped exceptions that happen to give the majority a free pass to bully the minority are the hallmark of power-grubbing behaviour.

The solution is not to call anyone delusional because 1) anyone might be wrong and 2) it won't be real rationality, but consensus about rationality that chooses.

Useless label. Should be removed.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #29

Post by Diogenes »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #28]
Thanks for your contributions. I agree, it is impolite (to say the least) to call someone 'delusional' because of a religious belief in something fantastic. But I think it odd that an otherwise fantastic belief that would otherwise be considered delusional, is 'not delusional' if enough people share the same belief.

Where I have trouble is when, because of a religious belief that has no empirical support, people make decisions that are bad for themselves and others, such as voting for a demagogue, or polluting the planet because "the end is coming soon." I remember my father telling me about the Millerites and others who sold every thing and waited for the second coming. Popular versions had them sitting on rooftops and hills waiting for the Lord.

Some of these beliefs make the believers easy prey for hucksters. In other words, religious beliefs can be dysfunctional. Rather than be ridiculed, they should be helped, but the help should be genuine and respectful. From my reading of the literature, delusional beliefs are VERY difficult to dislodge. Sometimes counselors take the approach of just teaching the adherent to be circumspect about telling people about their beliefs because it costs them jobs or otherwise makes their lives difficult.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #30

Post by Purple Knight »

Diogenes wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:00 pmWhere I have trouble is when, because of a religious belief that has no empirical support, people make decisions that are bad for themselves and others, such as voting for a demagogue, or polluting the planet because "the end is coming soon."
They're welcome to waste their own resources. They're welcome to pollute their own land. But not mine or yours.

...And honestly, using plastic without recycling it (and sometimes even when you do recycle it) does count as the latter.

Image

Do they own the ocean? No?

Well, see how everything bad they might do because of their beliefs can be counted as doing something, and we can focus on that?

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