Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

[Diogenes]

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?

[amortalman]

I'd suggest that believing in ghosts, angels, demons, gods and the like fit either definition and are delusional, according to three editions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

Except that the DSM III & IV definition explicitly excludes religious doctrines, making your argument on that score self-defeating.

That the DSM III & IV definitions explicitly exclude religious doctrines is no surprise and only confirms what Richard Dawkins devoted several pages to in his book The God Delusion about how religion gets an undeserved honored seat in society. You just don't mess with religious stuff. Why? You just don't. It's almost an unwritten law. You can't hold religious beliefs to the same standard as you would to other beliefs.

[Inquirer]

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?

What do you mean by the term "religious" belief? how does it differ from a non-religious belief?

[William]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #32]

Q: What do you mean by the term "religious" belief? how does it differ from a non-religious belief?

William: A "religious belief" has to do with the branch of Theism which attempts to Dress The Ghost - [dressing The Ghost through the use of imagery is an attempt to make The Ghost be seen.] which is what religion does with the idea of GOD...this itself stems from the idea that we exist within a creation, something which still hasn't been established.
Thus Theism - and the religious branch in particular, place the cart before the horse.

viewtopic.php?p=1084694#p1084694

[Diogenes]

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?

What do you mean by the term "religious" belief? how does it differ from a non-religious belief?

Excellent question! I should have defined what I meant. I don't disagree with William's answer, tho' I wouldn't have put it the way he did. Obviously there is a wide range of religious beliefs. Certain forms of Buddhism are not even considered religions, but more like a philosophy or a way of life. Certain forms of Christianity and Judaism are similar.
So, in the context of this subtopic, I mean those beliefs that clearly involve the supernatural, with beings that can not exist given our current understanding of nature... flying horses, ascents to heaven, absurd miracles like the creation story in Genesis, Noah and the Ark.... Someone else can probably offer a more succinct definition. It's easier to give examples.

[Inquirer]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #32]

Q: What do you mean by the term "religious" belief? how does it differ from a non-religious belief?

William: A "religious belief" has to do with the branch of Theism which attempts to Dress The Ghost - [dressing The Ghost through the use of imagery is an attempt to make The Ghost be seen.] which is what religion does with the idea of GOD...this itself stems from the idea that we exist within a creation, something which still hasn't been established.
Thus Theism - and the religious branch in particular, place the cart before the horse.

viewtopic.php?p=1084694#p1084694

I see, so we're really asking if a belief in ghosts is delusional, why didn't you just ask that then in the first place?

[Inquirer]

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?

What do you mean by the term "religious" belief? how does it differ from a non-religious belief?

Excellent question! I should have defined what I meant. I don't disagree with William's answer, tho' I wouldn't have put it the way he did. Obviously there is a wide range of religious beliefs. Certain forms of Buddhism are not even considered religions, but more like a philosophy or a way of life. Certain forms of Christianity and Judaism are similar.
So, in the context of this subtopic, I mean those beliefs that clearly involve the supernatural, with beings that can not exist given our current understanding of nature... flying horses, ascents to heaven, absurd miracles like the creation story in Genesis, Noah and the Ark.... Someone else can probably offer a more succinct definition. It's easier to give examples.

So a religious belief is any claim by someone that appears to run contrary to someone else's belief about what can or cannot exist, is that it?

So you're asking if its delusional for me to claim X is true on the basis that you claim X is false? That's nonsensical, one could then easily claim that it is you who is delusional for making a claim that I disagree with.

All we have are people and claims either made by them or denied by them, I don't see how we can absolutely establish truth or delusion in this situation.

[William]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #32]

Q: What do you mean by the term "religious" belief? how does it differ from a non-religious belief?

William: A "religious belief" has to do with the branch of Theism which attempts to Dress The Ghost - [dressing The Ghost through the use of imagery is an attempt to make The Ghost be seen.] which is what religion does with the idea of GOD...this itself stems from the idea that we exist within a creation, something which still hasn't been established.
Thus Theism - and the religious branch in particular, place the cart before the horse.

viewtopic.php?p=1084694#p1084694

I see, so we're really asking if a belief in ghosts is delusional, why didn't you just ask that then in the first place?

It isn't immediately obvious that when folk are yapping about "GOD" they are talking about a Ghost. Same as when folk yap about Spirits....

[Inquirer]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #32]

Q: What do you mean by the term "religious" belief? how does it differ from a non-religious belief?

William: A "religious belief" has to do with the branch of Theism which attempts to Dress The Ghost - [dressing The Ghost through the use of imagery is an attempt to make The Ghost be seen.] which is what religion does with the idea of GOD...this itself stems from the idea that we exist within a creation, something which still hasn't been established.
Thus Theism - and the religious branch in particular, place the cart before the horse.

viewtopic.php?p=1084694#p1084694

I see, so we're really asking if a belief in ghosts is delusional, why didn't you just ask that then in the first place?

It isn't immediately obvious that when folk are yapping about "GOD" they are talking about a Ghost. Same as when folk yap about Spirits....

Sorry, but that's delusional, God and ghosts are entirely different things not the same.

[JoeyKnothead]

Sorry, but that's delusional, God and ghosts are entirely different things not the same.

Poor ol' holy ghost don't get no respect.

[William]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #32]

Q: What do you mean by the term "religious" belief? how does it differ from a non-religious belief?

William: A "religious belief" has to do with the branch of Theism which attempts to Dress The Ghost - [dressing The Ghost through the use of imagery is an attempt to make The Ghost be seen.] which is what religion does with the idea of GOD...this itself stems from the idea that we exist within a creation, something which still hasn't been established.
Thus Theism - and the religious branch in particular, place the cart before the horse.

viewtopic.php?p=1084694#p1084694

I see, so we're really asking if a belief in ghosts is delusional, why didn't you just ask that then in the first place?

It isn't immediately obvious that when folk are yapping about "GOD" they are talking about a Ghost. Same as when folk yap about Spirits....

Sorry, but that's delusional, God and ghosts are entirely different things not the same.

For now, your unsupported statement has to be treated as opinion...