As I've pointed out many times (probably too many times), I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian environment. I was taught young-earth creationism from an early age, was told prayer and reading the Bible were the answer to most of life's problems and questions, and witnessed all sorts of "interesting" things such as speaking in tongues, faith healing, end times predictions, etc.
Yet despite being completely immersed in this culture, I can't recall a time in my life when I ever believed any of it. However, unlike some of my peers at the time I didn't really find it boring. In fact, I found a lot of it to be rather fascinating because.....very little of it made any sense to me. I just could not understand the people, their beliefs, their way of thinking, or much of anything that I saw and heard. When I saw them anointing with oil someone who had the flu and later saw the virus spread (of course), I could not understand what they were thinking. When I saw them make all sorts of failed predictions about the Soviet Union and the end times, yet never even acknowledge their errors while continuing to make more predictions, I was baffled. Speaking in tongues was of particular interest to me because it really made no sense to me.
In the years that I've been debating creationists it's the same thing. When I see them say "no transitional fossils" or "no new genetic information" only to ignore examples of those things when they're presented, I can't relate to that way of thinking at all. When I see them demand evidence for things only to ignore it after it's provided, I can't relate. When I see them quote mine a scientific paper and after someone points it out they completely ignore it, I can't relate.
Now to be clear, I think I "understand" some of what's behind these behaviors (i.e., the psychological factors), but what I don't understand is how the people engaging in them seem to be completely oblivious to it all. What goes on in their mind when they demand "show me the evidence", ignore everything that's provided in response, and then come back later and make the same demand all over again? Are they so blinded by the need to maintain their beliefs that they literally block out all memories of it? Again....I just don't get it.
So the point of discussion for this thread is....how about you? For the "evolutionists", can you relate to the creationists' way of thinking and behaviors? For the creationists, are there behaviors from the other side that baffle you, and you just don't understand? Do you look at folks like me and think to yourselves, "I just cannot relate to his way of thinking?"
Or is it just me?
Do you understand those on the other side?
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #161There's a possible third option, where a god forms primitive forms of stuff that later evolves into more complex forms.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:32 pm You have two options..
1. God did it.
2. Nature did it.
"Specified" complexity reeks, to me, of an a priori belief in a god, and so following conclusions might be compromised.Now, long story short; based on everything I know...when I see specified complexity, that is complex physical objections, each with functionality and purpose....these objects are 100% create by intelligent design(er).
What's it mean to be "complex"? Is dirt simple, but becomes complex when we add water and make us up a mud pie? Complexity really comes down to subjective evaluations of our surroundings.
"Life is complex". The very definition of life is, and don't this beat all, complex.
Are viruses alive?
Let's move now to "functionality and purpose"...
When considering function, we're really just observing a single, or group of functions. Why don't these dang eyes of mine have x-ray vision, so I can see the pretty thing nekkid, and not hafta do my chores to make that happen?
Same with purpose... The 'purpose' of my eyes is to see. Yet they let me down so often. No visible light? Better hope your toes can see that leg on the coffee table, and that don't even take into account seeing the pretty thing. Nekkid.
Yet the data is so compelling as to be the foundational understanding for all of biology.We_Are_Venom wrote: So, for an atheist to conclude that, lets say, the human body; the eyes to see, ears to hear, digestive system, circulatory system, reproduction system, nervous system, etc....all of that purpose and functionality...to believe that that was all the result from a random, blind, mindless process.
No, I will NEVER relate to that kind of thinking.
Ever.
Critters are a collection of cells, of which, some are good at, some function best at, an odd job or two. Combined though, these cells, which are a collection of atoms, can come together in amazing ways. Atoms, composed of other stuff, bunch up together, and we get cells. Cells bump up together, and we get critters. Critters bump up together and we get societies. Societies bump up together and we get wars. Wars that reduce critters back to atoms, and the process starts all over again.
Think on colonial organisms though. Here there's different, distinct organisms grouped together, such as in the Portuguese man o' war. Here we've got a distinct critter that is itself made up of other distinct critters.
What better explains this display? A god thought "Let's make this critter out of it, other critters, and see how it flummoxes the humans"?
Or is the better explanation, "Stuff gathers together, and after a time of doing it, ya get an entire different bunch of stuff"?
As I mentioned before, we see these groupings, in real time, every day. From a collection of atoms building a collection of cells building a collection of trees building a collection of forests.
And for what function?
To a nail a man to one of them trees?
Now there's a "specified complexity", or way of thinking, for which I'll never relate.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #162Even supposing a mind begat the initial forms and then left it to an algorithm to allow for the forms to intelligently design themselves into more complex forms, that still amounts to "God did it" through the 'nature doing it'...We_Are_VENOM: You have two options..
1. God did it.
2. Nature did it.
JK: There's a possible third option, where a god forms primitive forms of stuff that later evolves into more complex forms.
Maybe therein the 'other sides' of this conflict could find intelligent compromise...only it appears that the algorithm allows for lack of compromise, and perhaps the lack itself is necessary for complexity to push through that better understanding of circumstance [through science] can be accomplished.
Flip side to that is the science being utilized apparently isn't too concerned with the damage it is bringing to the only alive planet in the whole darned universe...we are likely ever to know about.
The worship of human intelligence has it's apparent and significant down-side.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #163As usual, you paint the picture so well.William wrote: ↑Sun Jul 17, 2022 1:29 pmEven supposing a mind begat the initial forms and then left it to an algorithm to allow for the forms to intelligently design themselves into more complex forms, that still amounts to "God did it" through the 'nature doing it'...We_Are_VENOM: You have two options..
1. God did it.
2. Nature did it.
JK: There's a possible third option, where a god forms primitive forms of stuff that later evolves into more complex forms.
Maybe therein the 'other sides' of this conflict could find intelligent compromise...only it appears that the algorithm allows for lack of compromise, and perhaps the lack itself is necessary for complexity to push through that better understanding of circumstance [through science] can be accomplished.
Flip side to that is the science being utilized apparently isn't too concerned with the damage it is bringing to the only alive planet in the whole darned universe...we are likely ever to know about, the worship of human intelligence has it's apparent and significant down-side.
As a dedicated fan of the scientific method, it can sure be put to just as much or more evil than any religion.
Which is one reason I like your cosmic mind hypothesis. It doesn't judge, it just kinda sits there, with that disappointed face, when I know I did me something wrong. It puts the mirror to my soul.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #164[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #161]
Here's an example of complexity:
Here's an example of simplicty:
Clearly, complexity is not a hallmark of design.
Tcg
Here's an example of complexity:
Here's an example of simplicty:
Clearly, complexity is not a hallmark of design.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #165When I first began visiting discussion boards such as this, it was to try and find out why people believed in God, the Bible and other aspects of their religion. I did not have a very deep knowledge base back then and asked many, many questions. Over time I learned an awful lot, but I am still not much the wiser as to why people hold their beliefs. None of the reasons given were compelling in the least and I was usually told that the problem was with me. Only one reason has surfaced and made the most sense to me - childhood indoctrination. There comes a time when those inculcated beliefs get so ingrained that it becomes nigh impossible to shed them for fear of the imagined repercussions. As I was losing my beliefs in my early teens I was still afraid of eternal damnation and also felt the social consequences of rejecting my religion. That wore off quickly and I am now perfectly comfortable with having my finite existence book-ended by nothingness.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:35 pm So the point of discussion for this thread is....how about you? For the "evolutionists", can you relate to the creationists' way of thinking and behaviors? For the creationists, are there behaviors from the other side that baffle you, and you just don't understand? Do you look at folks like me and think to yourselves, "I just cannot relate to his way of thinking?"
Evolution makes perfect sense to me. As someone with a science background (chemistry, biochemistry, biology) I am not daunted by the apparent complexity of life. Our responses are rather subjective in that regard. What we consider as incredibly complex or highly improbable may be quite ordinary in the universal scheme of things. Everything happens according to the laws of nature. Our incredulity counts for nothing.
On the other hand, most aspects of creationism make no sense to me at all. The behaviour of God as described in the Bible is no better than that of a super human being with a gigantic ego. His powers equate to nothing more than what we would call magic where things can poof into existence from nothing or events happen in defiance of any laws. God is just an invented answer to the questions we still don't have answers to. As such, it really answers nothing at all, including the so-called creation of everything.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #166In order to bring this item into reality, very complex things happened....
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #167[Replying to Jose Fly in post #1]
Partizipating in this forum is an excellent way to learn to understand those on the other side.
I think one can and should continously work on better understanding all versions of those on the other side.
Partizipating in this forum is an excellent way to learn to understand those on the other side.
I think one can and should continously work on better understanding all versions of those on the other side.
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For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates"
"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon!"
"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates"
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #168[Replying to William in post #166]
What is that, please? Is that for worshipping?
What is that, please? Is that for worshipping?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again.”
"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon!"
"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates"
"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon!"
"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates"
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #169Thanks. That's an interesting way to frame it. The first thing that comes to my mind when I see it framed that way is to note that we actually see nature doing things all the time, but gods? Not at all.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 3:32 pm Yeah, I will give you the short version of where I'm coming from.
Great question, btw.
You have two options..
1. God did it.
2. Nature did it.
Does that include things like plasmodium (the parasite that causes malaria) and it's very complex life cycle?Now, long story short; based on everything I know...when I see specified complexity, that is complex physical objections, each with functionality and purpose....these objects are 100% create by intelligent design(er).
I'm curious about that. Is it more because you just can't imagine how it could all happen on its own, or is it because you already believe in a god (or gods) and part of that belief is that it/they have a creator role?So, for an atheist to conclude that, lets say, the human body; the eyes to see, ears to hear, digestive system, circulatory system, reproduction system, nervous system, etc....all of that purpose and functionality...to believe that that was all the result from a random, blind, mindless process.
No, I will NEVER relate to that kind of thinking.
Ever.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #170But doesn't what you describe require additional explanation? It sounds like you had a similar upbringing to mine, where we were both indoctrinated into Christianity from an early age. Yet both of us walked away from it, while others who were just as indoctrinated stayed.brunumb wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:00 am When I first began visiting discussion boards such as this, it was to try and find out why people believed in God, the Bible and other aspects of their religion. I did not have a very deep knowledge base back then and asked many, many questions. Over time I learned an awful lot, but I am still not much the wiser as to why people hold their beliefs. None of the reasons given were compelling in the least and I was usually told that the problem was with me. Only one reason has surfaced and made the most sense to me - childhood indoctrination. There comes a time when those inculcated beliefs get so ingrained that it becomes nigh impossible to shed them for fear of the imagined repercussions. As I was losing my beliefs in my early teens I was still afraid of eternal damnation and also felt the social consequences of rejecting my religion. That wore off quickly and I am now perfectly comfortable with having my finite existence book-ended by nothingness.
So why do some stay while others leave? IMO, while each situation is unique, the most common thread I see in stories like ours seems to be inherent critical thinking skills. I recently read a paper where the researcher looked into the conservative talking point that if your kid takes science classes in college (or goes to secular college at all), it'll turn them against the religion of their upbringing. But the researchers instead found that the main factor that drives college students away from religion is the development of critical thinking skills, which can come from any number of classes. IOW, it's not that they're learning science, it's that they're learning how to think scientifically.
https://academic.oup.com/socrel/advance ... ogin=false
We're in the same boat on that. I've always been prone to scientific-type thinking, even as a little kid. It drove my family and our church leaders crazy, but it just seemed obvious and natural to me.Evolution makes perfect sense to me. As someone with a science background (chemistry, biochemistry, biology) I am not daunted by the apparent complexity of life. Our responses are rather subjective in that regard. What we consider as incredibly complex or highly improbable may be quite ordinary in the universal scheme of things. Everything happens according to the laws of nature. Our incredulity counts for nothing.
Agreed. But I think folks like us look at the gods and their stories in an objective and analytical way, whereas many religious folks look at it quite differently.On the other hand, most aspects of creationism make no sense to me at all. The behaviour of God as described in the Bible is no better than that of a super human being with a gigantic ego. His powers equate to nothing more than what we would call magic where things can poof into existence from nothing or events happen in defiance of any laws. God is just an invented answer to the questions we still don't have answers to. As such, it really answers nothing at all, including the so-called creation of everything.
My youngest kid is going into biology and she has a strong analytical streak in her, so I try and remind her as much as I can to keep in mind...."not everyone thinks like you". One of my colleagues is quite conservative and Christian, and he's always been a fine biologist (and a good friend).
So I like to remind myself..."people are usually more complex than I think".
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.