Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Regens Küchl
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Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #1

Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #401

Post by The Nice Centurion »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:58 pm Thank you.

I'm sure sure what is meant by "no witnesses to the actual resurrection". As the story goes, there wouldn't be as Jesus resurrected inside the tomb with no -one to see it. .
Several problems with that reasoning.
The mythology stars an omnipotent god who could have esily arranged his greatest show to be witnessed by whichever people he wanted.
Why not teleport the greatest historians, physicians and rulers of the time to the burial site?

What? Not enough room for them all inside the tomb to watch listen and learn? No sufficient light inside to see the resurrection sufficiently?

Our omnipotent excellency cant have a problem with dealing with that!
Just make the tomb invisible to show only the rising Jesus therein. Or just send the angel (our god is too lazy to just will the stone gone ??? So he needs his angelic lackey ???) to dispose of the stone BEFORE RESURRECTION TIME and teleport half a dozen of the most important people of the time before the entrance and force them to watch.
Or Perhaps rather the people most involved in this?

How about snatching Tiberius Caesar, King Herod, Pontius Pilate, a young Paul (so he wouldnt even think of starting harrassing christians), Judas (to show him that his planned suicide got obsolete) and Peter (so he could at once start the propaganda machine for Jesus) and give them front seats for "the resurrection" ???

But aside that; That Jesus was alone in the tomb in no way explains the missing resurrection narrative!
For the gospels are so full of narratives of Jesus doing and saing things with no other person there watching that I dont even have to give examples.

Hell, the narrative even tells what Jesus did in Hades. He stroke down Death and Devil.
(Are we to assume that Death and devil couldnt wait to tell the evangelists about their shame?)
So how could the narrative pass its chance to describe the actual resurrection?
Last edited by The Nice Centurion on Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #402

Post by TRANSPONDER »

A nice idea, but the short answer is, God doesn't land in a fleet of flying saucers on the White house Lawn or give press conferences. He operates through normal activities that could pass as ordinary events with a bit of coincidence and some fanciful claims that could be dismissed as tall tales. The element of free will choice has to remain so that Faith is valid. If it was just made undeniable and provable, faith would be so watered down that it wouldn't save anyone.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #403

Post by The Nice Centurion »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:30 am A nice idea, but the short answer is, God doesn't land in a fleet of flying saucers on the White house Lawn or give press conferences. He operates through normal activities that could pass as ordinary events with a bit of coincidence and some fanciful claims that could be dismissed as tall tales. The element of free will choice has to remain so that Faith is valid. If it was just made undeniable and provable, faith would be so watered down that it wouldn't save anyone.
Mormons do this with the Gold Plates. Joseph Smith had to keep them in the box and had to travel with friends to a Paralell Universe to deposit them in a cave in the Hill Cumora there.
(Yes, mormons believe that officially with the reason that in OUR universe an earth hill cannot have a cave.)

And all this universe jumping for the alleged reason, that we would all be mormons if we had the Golden Plates. And that would make faith obsolete.
Do you believe that?

An actual resurrection narrative in a gospel would not make faith undeniable and provable. It could easily pass as just a tale. No harm done.
So this question of mine remains unanswered!

But even in case of eyewitnesses .. .
Jesus other great miracles had lots of eywitnesses. The wine, bread and fish wonders are clearly meant to have witnesses amass to even taste the Miracle.
Still sceptics and too some believers today like to dismiss the miracles like nothing or try finding natural explanations.
See the Thomas Jefferson bible
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

So why no witnesses for the actual resurrection?
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"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #404

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I don't actually need to bother with the LDS, JWs or any other Christian spin -off, if Christianity falls. As it happens the Abraham papyrus does for the Mormons so far as I'm concerned, but if the Resurrection fails, it brings down Christianity and all the variants. Utterly.

That being so, your question is rather academic, but since you ask, I'd suggest that the structure and construction of the plot dictated it.

The way I see it is that the resurrection was spiritual. Jesus' messianic spirit had gone to heaven and would come back soon to do it right. To Paul, Jesus was Messiah but not God and you can bet that was the belief of the Apostles as well. I suggest that the spirit resurrection was replaced by the Gentile Christians with a demigod, and so had to be a solid body resurrection (but of a Reach there ;) ). Thus the empty tomb had to be discovered with the door open so that was evidence that the body had resurrected. That was developed early on (though not in John) with an angel posted there to explain to anyone who might happen to turn up first thing that Jesus had risen, in case anyone failed to guess. And more 'Proof' had to be invented (as it demonstrably was) with Luke finally altering the angelic message because he's learned from Paul's letters that the disciples didn't go to Galilee but founded the Church in Jerusalem.

The point I'm making is that they could have invented a public resurrection with everyone assembled, but the nature of the story being developed resulted in add -ons, rather than a spectacular public resurrection.

That's my Theory anyway and, while I could be wrong, "No evidence will ever change my mind." that I'm right.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER on Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #405

Post by The Nice Centurion »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #404]
Sure and sure, but my OP question remains unanswered.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #406

Post by Tcg »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:11 am I don't actually need to bother with the LDS, JWs or any other Christian spin -off, if Christianity falls. As it happens the Abraham papyrus does for the Mormons so far as I'm concerned, but if the Resurrection fails, it brings down Christianity and all the variants. Utterly.
I don't think so. I've known Christians who differentiate between the Jesus of history and the Jesus of faith. They accept that the two don't match and aren't bothered by that in the least. Their Christianity wouldn't skip a beat if the resurrection could be shown to not be literally true.

In Great Britain, one fourth of Christians don't believe in the resurrection:
Resurrection did not happen, say quarter of Christians

A quarter of people who describe themselves as Christians in Great Britain do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus, a survey commissioned by the BBC suggests.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-39153121

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #407

Post by Tcg »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:22 am [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #404]
Sure and sure, but my OP question remains unanswered.
The answer is probably that it isn't needed. Christianity seems to be faring rather well without it. One of Christianity's functions is to provide comfort to its followers. Once that carrot is dangled, evidence of any kind takes a back seat.


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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #408

Post by Bust Nak »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:27 pm Hell, the narrative even tells what Jesus did in Hades. He stroke down Death and Devil.
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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #409

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Tcg wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:34 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:22 am [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #404]
Sure and sure, but my OP question remains unanswered.
The answer is probably that it isn't needed. Christianity seems to be faring rather well without it. One of Christianity's functions is to provide comfort to its followers. Once that carrot is dangled, evidence of any kind takes a back seat.


Tcg
And yet, not only this forum owns countless threads about possible evidence and eyewitnesses for the resurrection.

Evangelicals, who in america stand for mainstream christianity, have countles sites, preachings and books to present wanted evidence and eyewitnesses for the resurrection.

Classics like Richard Bauckham:"Jesus and the Eyewitnesses", Lee Strobel:"The Case for Christ", Lee Strobel:"Evidence that demands a Verdict" . . .

Also this works seem to be the first choice present a christian person gives to his atheist offspring or friend.

I see no backseat here for evidence, but an obvious wanting need.

Perhaps that demand is relatively new, but now its here for good!
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

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"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #410

Post by Diogenes »

Tcg wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:27 am I don't think so. I've known Christians who differentiate between the Jesus of history and the Jesus of faith. They accept that the two don't match and aren't bothered by that in the least. Their Christianity wouldn't skip a beat if the resurrection could be shown to not be literally true.
True, for some. For others it is of vital importance. Books like Strobel's are very important to them, but they demonstrate that for believers it isn't really evidence that is important, it is the pretense of evidence. They just need enough so they can feel like the belief is justified. For others, yes, it is about comfort and confirmation bias. It has become part of their lives, a core belief and and important, no, the KEY part of their social life and the focus of their mental life.

Strobel's book is horrible stuff. He writes as if he thinks he understands legal evidence. He does not have a clue. He is a journalist. But there is a HUGE market for this trash because it helps confirm what some want to believe. Christianity remains popular because it is a tribal brand.

LDS belief system is even easier to debunk. Millions actually believe the disappearing Golden Plates nonsense. As if that were not enough, as TRANSPONDER mentioned, we have The Book of Abraham forgery.

LDS scholars admit Smith claimed he'd translated it from Egyptian funeral papyri. After the Rosetta Stone discovery enabled scholars to actually translate Egyptian, the LDS community changed their tune. Suddenly Smith had only claimed to have been inspired by the papyri. Of course that was nonsense, since he had actually forged part of it by crudely altering the drawings. It was as clumsy as Trump drawing a line with a sharpie to prove his hurricane lie. :)

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism ... of_Abraham

Image

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... mormonism/

Mormonism is probably even more successful than most other versions of Christianity, even tho' its founders' frauds are even easier to detect. The JW's founder's many end time failed prophesies did not end that nonsense either.

There is a lesson here, summarized in a quote dubiously attributed to Mark Twain:

It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
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