Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Diogenes »

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #61

Post by Inquirer »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:02 pm
Inquirer wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 12:46 pmIf it was not misleading then it would persist to this day in more recent Bible translations. Using the wrong term for something is to mislead the reader. So it is the use of term that is misleading.
You repeatedly insist that it is misleading, yet have so far either neglected or refused to explain why.
I've answered your question. yet you continue to insist I have not.

You ask "why" it is misleading? well, for the same reason that calling an aeroplane a handsaw is misleading.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #62

Post by Difflugia »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:06 pmI've answered your question. yet you continue to insist I have not.
You've repeated that it is misleading. The question is why?
Inquirer wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:06 pmYou ask "why" it is misleading? well, for the same reason that calling an aeroplane a handsaw is misleading.
So far, the only answer you've offered for either question is that you've asserted its truth.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #63

Post by Inquirer »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:05 pm
Inquirer wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:06 pmI've answered your question. yet you continue to insist I have not.
You've repeated that it is misleading. The question is why?
Inquirer wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:06 pmYou ask "why" it is misleading? well, for the same reason that calling an aeroplane a handsaw is misleading.
So far, the only answer you've offered for either question is that you've asserted its truth.
That's not true. I just answered "[it is misleading] for the SAME reason that calling an aeroplane a handsaw is misleading"? is it misleading though? do you think it is? or if someone said "we were delayed flying to New York because the handsaw wasn't ready" you'd not find that misleading?

Perhaps this will help you, a definition of misleading:
to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit.
Joey's belief that a belief in God is the same as a belief in ghosts is a perfect example of being misled, in this case by the term "ghost" used in the KJV.

Ghosts aren't real, God is, yet because the KJV uses the term "ghost" Joey was misled into believing that God is fictional like ghosts are fictional.
Last edited by Inquirer on Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #64

Post by Diogenes »

[Replying to Inquirer]
There is nothing misleading about using 'ghost' or 'Holy Ghost' to refer to a spirit or God.

The reluctance to resort to dictionaries and other resources on word history while debating the usage of a word is amusing. "Holy Ghost" is used in the KJV as well as "ghost" for a man's spirit. I thought every English speaker knew that.

John 14:26 - 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.'

Genesis 25:8 "Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died...."
ghost (n.)
Old English gast "breath; good or bad spirit, angel, demon; person, man, human being," in Biblical use "soul, spirit, life," from Proto-West Germanic *gaistaz (source also of Old Saxon gest, Old Frisian jest, Middle Dutch gheest, Dutch geest, German Geist "spirit, ghost"). This is conjectured to be from a PIE root *gheis-, used in forming words involving the notions of excitement, amazement, or fear (source also of Sanskrit hedah "wrath;" Avestan zaesha- "horrible, frightful;" Gothic usgaisjan, Old English gæstan "to frighten").

Ghost is the English representative of the usual West Germanic word for "supernatural being." In Christian writing in Old English it is used to render Latin spiritus (see spirit (n.)), a sense preserved in Holy Ghost. Sense of "disembodied spirit of a dead person," especially imagined as wandering among the living or haunting them, is attested from late 14c. and returns the word toward its likely prehistoric sense.

Most Indo-European words for "soul, spirit" also double with reference to supernatural spirits. Many have a base sense of "appearance" (such as Greek phantasma; French spectre; Polish widmo, from Old Church Slavonic videti "to see;" Old English scin, Old High German giskin, originally "appearance, apparition," related to Old English scinan, Old High German skinan "to shine"). Other concepts are in French revenant, literally "returning" (from the other world), Old Norse aptr-ganga, literally "back-comer." Breton bugelnoz is literally "night-child." Latin manes probably is a euphemism.

The gh- spelling appeared early 15c. in Caxton, influenced by Flemish and Middle Dutch gheest, but was rare in English before mid-16c. Sense of "slight suggestion, mere shadow or semblance" (in ghost image, ghost of a chance, etc.) is first recorded 1610s; sense of "one who secretly does work for another" is from 1884. Ghost town is from 1908. Ghost story is by 1811. Ghost-word "apparent word or false form in a manuscript due to a blunder" is from 1886 (Skeat). Ghost in the machine was British philosopher Gilbert Ryle's term (1949) for "the mind viewed as separate from the body." The American Indian ghost dance is from 1890. To give up the ghost "die" was in Old English.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/ghost
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #65

Post by Inquirer »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #64]

Here, in the 21st century "ghost" has connotations rather different to those it had in the 17th century. If I said to you "I am gay" you'd infer a different meaning to what someone would have inferred in 1820 for example. That is you'd be misled into thinking I was homosexual.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #66

Post by Difflugia »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:29 pmI just answered "[it is misleading] for the SAME reason that calling an aeroplane a handsaw is misleading"?
What's the reason? Why are you trying to turn this into a staring contest instead of answering a straightforward question about what you mean?

William's comments were insightful:
William wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:37 pmWilliam: A "religious belief" has to do with the branch of Theism which attempts to Dress The Ghost - [dressing The Ghost through the use of imagery is an attempt to make The Ghost be seen.] which is what religion does with the idea of GOD...this itself stems from the idea that we exist within a creation, something which still hasn't been established.
Thus Theism - and the religious branch in particular, place the cart before the horse.
William wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 1:06 pmIt isn't immediately obvious that when folk are yapping about "GOD" they are talking about a Ghost. Same as when folk yap about Spirits....
You insultingly dismissed them without explanation:
Inquirer wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 1:11 pmSorry, but that's delusional, God and ghosts are entirely different things not the same.
You then went on to dismiss JoeyKnothead's observation that the Authorized Version refers to the Holy Ghost.

You haven't explained what the difference is in reference either to William's comment or the Authorized Version, only derisively hinted that it's self-explanatory. I suspect that you and William had slightly different meanings in mind for "ghost" such that both of your statements are true from a particular point of view. That happens sometimes, but when it's intentional, it's equivocation. Is it intentional? Is that why you don't want to define your terms? Are you concerned that someone might find a narrower word or phrase that's more accurate, but just as unflattering to theists? If not, why is it so important to you that we guess at what you're talking about?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #67

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 11:43 am
This is what Joey said:
when folk are yapping about "GOD" they are talking about a Ghost
I never said any such a thing.

I merely noted the poor ol holy ghost don't get no respect.

Where you said there ain't no ghosts, I was reminded of how here, in the Bible Belt, the holy ghost is mentioned quite frequently.

So now I gotta sort it out - are the millions of holy ghost teller abouters right, or are you, a lone indivual, the one who has it right?

From the telling about it bunch, ya can hear the KJV thumping all across the South. From you, I see ya ain't proud of the KJV bible, but have little beyond that to know why ya ain't proud of it.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #68

Post by Diogenes »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:38 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #64]

Here, in the 21st century "ghost" has connotations rather different to those it had in the 17th century. If I said to you "I am gay" you'd infer a different meaning to what someone would have inferred in 1820 for example. That is you'd be misled into thinking I was homosexual.
Joey's last post answers your question, but I'll amplify.
Depending on what part of the world or country you are from, it may sound odd to you, but 'Holy Ghost' and 'ghost' are used in the KJV which is still the most popular version of the Bible today, even more than 400 years since it's first publication.
Though there are hundreds of versions and translations of the Bible, the KJV is the most popular. According to market research firm Statistica, as of 2017, more than 31% of Americans read the KJV, with the New International Version coming in second place, at 13%. Five large denominations of Christianity — Baptist, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Latter-day Saints and Pentecostal — use the KJV today."
Back in the 50s and 1960s when I went to Sunday School it was probably used by 90% of the congregants. My father was quite progressive and a preacher's kid, so we used the RSV. The 'Bible Belt' in the U.S. is the most conservative part of the country. No regular church goer there would be the least bit confused to hear the 'Holy Spirit' referred to as the 'Holy Ghost.'
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #69

Post by William »

William: It isn't immediately obvious that when folk are yapping about "GOD" they are talking about a Ghost. Same as when folk yap about Spirits....

Inquirer: Here, in the 21st century "ghost" has connotations rather different to those it had in the 17th century. If I said to you "I am gay" you'd infer a different meaning to what someone would have inferred in 1820 for example. That is you'd be misled into thinking I was homosexual.

[Replying to Difflugia in post #66]
I suspect that you and William had slightly different meanings in mind for "ghost" such that both of your statements are true from a particular point of view.
I have no problem in thinking GOD as a GHOST {GOD-HOST/G.HOST}

There is no excuse for regular contributors in the forum not getting the gist of my overall position as I also refer to GOD as "Consciousness" [and consciousness is invisible by nature just as are 'ghosts'] and I concur with the likelihood that we exist within a creation and that the creation we refer to as "reality" is indeed an Experiential Reality [experienced by all of us consciously/with consciousness] and I think of this reality as being the product of a Mind I refer to as "Cosmic" - that "Mind" = "GOD" and is invisible and I sometimes also refer to this Cosmic Mind as "The Ghost in The Machine" and created the machine [physical universe] in order to have the particular experience the machine can provide it with.

If the Inquirer thinks GOD is different from that, then I agree with JK and Diogenes and Difflugia that the Inquirer has to clearly explain the difference so we might all better understand the protest the Inquirer is making re the accusation being made that I am being 'misleading'.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Inquirer »

EDITING ERROR - DELETED.
Last edited by Inquirer on Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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