If you were Satan....

[Athetotheist]

I remember a TV preacher once asking his broadcast audience, "If you were Satan....." I don't remember the rest of the question, but I seem to remember that he was talking about prophecy and arguing that Satan was up to some diabolical mischief ("If you were Satan, isn't that what you would do?").

A lot of detail in Christian scripture about what is to happen before Jesus returns is tied to the activity of "Satan". The appearance of the "antichrist", in particular, is supposed to be part of Satan's last gambit before he goes down to utter defeat.

Since it was asked of me how I would react if I were Satan, I think it's fair for me to answer. I know that "Satan" is supposed to be a being of superhuman intelligence, but I can't help thinking that if such a being actually existed and if I were that being, I could do a lot better.

If I were "Satan", I would scrap the antichrist plan. If it's all laid out in the Bible, then everyone knows what to expect and you've lost the element of surprise. With that one simple deviation from the prophetic scenario, the whole thing would be gummed up. No antichrist, no mark of the beast, no abomination of desolation, no anything I was supposed to do as Satan to set the stage for the return of Jesus. And without those prophetic components in place, Jesus couldn't return to fulfill prophecy. And how could anyone stop me? I wouldn't be taking some action which could be prevented; I would be defeating prophecy by not taking action.

So let me pass the preacher's question on to you. If you were "Satan", what would you do----or not do----to thwart prophecy?

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #215

If Jesus finds a way to FORCE HIS (SATANS) HAND.

What way?

And if anyone has to "force" his hand, then he isn't acting on his own will and isn't responsible for what he does.

Someway! He is no Doofus, he is Jesus!

If a bank robber forces the hand of the local sheriff, is than the sheriff not responsible and not acting on his own free will ?

"Force his Hand" is a common matter of speaking and never means that someone is literary forced!

you care not what believers think, but very much about what theology says? How odd!
Believers create theology!

Believers don't just pull theology out of the air. They base it on religious text.

Exactly my point! So why do you not care what believers believe, when you build scenarios in the middle of their mythologys ???

If Christians use passwords, are they using the mark of the beast?

Could be. Is it that unreasonable as suspicion?

Then who would Jesus rescue? If those who worship the beast take his mark as an act of worship, do Christians use passwords as an act of worshipping the beast?

Any Christians reading here care to comment on that?

Yeah, we could use some more participants here !!!

[The Nice Centurion]

If anything and everything can be interpreted that loosely as prophetic fulfillment, then prophecy is meaningless.

Erich von Daeniken proved in his early books that ancient people of course didnt have the words for many modern things.
For sure bible writers did not have PASSWORDS and would have called it Signature.

Further everyone knows how loosely scripture is possible to be interpreted but that makes it not meaningles, for your fiery pal wouldnt want to thwart something meaningless, I am sure!

If One does not like the loose prophecy fullfillmemt interpreting in this thread so far . . .
. . . and holds prophecy threrefore meaningless . . .
. . . should eat this : . . .
. . . Jehovahs Witnesses interpret endtime prohecy . . .
. . . so that Jesus Second coming was in 1914, . . .
. . . but inconviently Jesus made himself invisible . . .
. . . which was unfair to Satan, for how is he to thwart what he cant see? (And unfair to all christians, I want to add.)
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=33396&hilit=1914

Then Jehovahs Witnesses announced a Second Second Coming for 1975 for Jesus to start his 1000 Year Reign . . .
. . . that would make us living in the year 47 of Jesus milennial reign . . . Oh No . . . this time Satan must have managed to thwart prophecy . . . how in the world did he do that?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #221

Someway! He is no Doofus, he is Jesus!

But you assume that "Satan" would be a "doofus".

If a bank robber forces the hand of the local sheriff, is than the sheriff not responsible and not acting on his own free will ?

This isn't about the bank robber forcing the sheriff's hand; it's about the sheriff forcing the robber's hand, which would make the sheriff guilty of what the robber did.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #202

what can we realistically point to in regards to the mark of the beast, which connects real events with the biblical description?

Thus far, nothing. There's no single, universal thing anyone must have in order to buy or sell.
___________________

What about a personal signature?

Does anyone have to wear their personal signature as a mark in their right hand or on their forehead?

Not literally. Do you think that should be taken literally?

Is everyone's personal signature the name of the beast or the number of the beast's name?

What does that mean to you? Do you interpret that literally?

Does anyone use a personal signature when they pay cash to buy produce at a farmer's market?

My point was that without a signature, one cannot access cash or use cash or any other form of payment in any marketplace.

The signature is really a modern form of placing ones mark on documentation which allows one to be a part of the local and world market-systems, allowing you to partake...

If anything and everything can be interpreted that loosely as prophetic fulfillment, then prophecy is meaningless.

You said there's no single, universal thing anyone must have in order to buy or sell. With my example of the personal signature, I showed this was not the case.

Will you be answering my further questions;

Q: Do you think that some type of literal physical mark on ones right hand or forehead, is the only interpretation? [if so, please explain why.]

Q: What does "name of the beast or the number of the beast's name" mean to you?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #222

Then Jehovahs Witnesses announced a Second Second Coming for 1975 for Jesus to start his 1000 Year Reign . . .
. . . that would make us living in the year 47 of Jesus milennial reign . . . Oh No . . . this time Satan must have managed to thwart prophecy . . . how in the world did he do that?

By.....not doing anything?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to William in post #224

You said there's no single, universal thing anyone must have in order to buy or sell. With my example of the personal signature, I showed this was not the case.

You did no such thing.

A homeless person is given some money and uses it to buy a sandwich from a street vendor. No signature involved.

And you don't think there are still forms of barter in the non-industrial world?

Do you think that some type of literal physical mark on ones right hand or forehead, is the only interpretation? [if so, please explain why.]

The brow was considered the noblest part of the body and the right hand was the one raised to take oaths, so those locations would make sense to first-century readers. And it would have to be something detectable in order for it to be established that it was there.

What does "name of the beast or the number of the beast's name" mean to you?

The number is established in the text, and the name would logically be a name corresponding to the number (Nero Caesar=666).

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #221

Someway! He is no Doofus, he is Jesus!

But you assume that "Satan" would be a "doofus".

No one is a doofus! Both are intelligent enough to possibly debate on this forum!

If a bank robber forces the hand of the local sheriff, is than the sheriff not responsible and not acting on his own free will ?

This isn't about the bank robber forcing the sheriff's hand; it's about the sheriff forcing the robber's hand, which would make the sheriff guilty of what the robber did.

A Sheriff would only force a criminals hand where it comes convenient. For example by luring him out from his hideout somehow, so he can be apprehended.
Plus we do not really know if the roles of sheriff and criminal are not really best fitted for Satan and Jesus!
Who knows what the real reason was for Satans exile from heaven.
Perhaps the Trinity run a heavenly holy kids porn ring. When Satan wanted to stop this he found himself thrown out of heaven. Can you prove it wasnt so?
It would explain why the bible never never speaks against pedophilians, and why so many christian churches make headlines for their pedophilians.

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #222

Then Jehovahs Witnesses announced a Second Second Coming for 1975 for Jesus to start his 1000 Year Reign . . .
. . . that would make us living in the year 47 of Jesus milennial reign . . . Oh No . . . this time Satan must have managed to thwart prophecy . . . how in the world did he do that?

By.....not doing anything?

Clearly possible!
Also possible that Jehovahs Witnesses were wrong!
Also possible that the bible is not true!
Also possible are lots of other explanations!
And the mass of possibilitys is problematic for finding the truth!

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #226]
Nice explanations but I presume that William expected some old fashioned theological bible exegetics from you.

[William]

William: You said there's no single, universal thing anyone must have in order to buy or sell. With my example of the personal signature, I showed this was not the case.

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #226]

You did no such thing.

Yes I did

A homeless person is given some money and uses it to buy a sandwich from a street vendor. No signature involved.

Are you forgetting that in order to give the money, the giver has to be signed into the system?
Or, is it just a matter of moving the goalposts?
Cash itself is signed off on.
The move toward a cashless society will mean the homeless will have to find the means to make market transactions, and that would involved a signature - just the same as it did before they became homeless.
Your argument appears to be straw-clutching at best - the system involves all who dwell under the shadow of its wings - even the minority homeless.

And you don't think there are still forms of barter in the non-industrial world?

Show me the evidence. Even if you don't, I would be within reason to assume these systems are operating within the shadow of the signatory system, rather than outside of it.

The things being bartered - even if made by the ones doing the bartering - usually have some monetary cost associated with the materials used.

Show me a whole country operating on barter, and I will acknowledge that country as being evidence that the absent-by-choice-antichrist you portray, likely rules that land.
Show me a whole world which operates on giving rather than selling, and your case will be proved that this antichrist did indeed make the choice not to do what was expected, and Jesus cannot return as a consequence.

Perhaps we could at least agree that if such a world did occur, of what point would Jesus therefore be required to return?

...Think it through...

Do you think that some type of literal physical mark on ones right hand or forehead, is the only interpretation? [if so, please explain why.]

The brow was considered the noblest part of the body and the right hand was the one raised to take oaths, so those locations would make sense to first-century readers. And it would have to be something detectable in order for it to be established that it was there.

You are halfway correct. In addition to this observation you make - the forehead is indicative of thought - consciousness - self awareness. These all contribute to self identity and self identity translates into signature re the System of The Beast [Marketplace] - wherein, chose a name [or have one chosen for you] and develop a mark-signature that is unique enough to be solely connected with you - the individual.

Nature Herself lends support to such a Signatory System developing as it has been, because we are scientifically known to be unique - DNA - fingerprints - eyes - and every Galaxy out there is most obviously a one-of-a-kind.

The individual accepts their identity as prescribed, and signs up.

That is the "forehead" aspect of the MotB

The right hand is significant of a persons actions. Signing off is the same thing as taking an oath.

Together, thought + action = Identity.

Identity + Signature = Survival.

The number is established in the text, and the name would logically be a name corresponding to the number (Nero Caesar=666).

And how does one go about calculating? Which coding should we use for the task? How did you reach the conclusion that "Nero Caesar=666"?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #227

Who knows what the real reason was for Satans exile from heaven.
Perhaps the Trinity run a heavenly holy kids porn ring. When Satan wanted to stop this he found himself thrown out of heaven. Can you prove it wasnt so?

Umm......

......you're just making stuff up. Admit it. You're out of ideas, so you're just letting any ludicrously nonsensical notion fly into your head and pecking it down on your keyboard because you've come to the realization that you have nothing whatsoever of any constructive sort to contribute to this discussion and have given up even any pretense of addressing the matter seriously, relying instead on taking it to an utterly mind-boggling level of bufoonish pseudo-discourse with not even a veneer of intellectual or philosophical validity in order to continue saying something.