As I've pointed out many times (probably too many times), I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian environment. I was taught young-earth creationism from an early age, was told prayer and reading the Bible were the answer to most of life's problems and questions, and witnessed all sorts of "interesting" things such as speaking in tongues, faith healing, end times predictions, etc.
Yet despite being completely immersed in this culture, I can't recall a time in my life when I ever believed any of it. However, unlike some of my peers at the time I didn't really find it boring. In fact, I found a lot of it to be rather fascinating because.....very little of it made any sense to me. I just could not understand the people, their beliefs, their way of thinking, or much of anything that I saw and heard. When I saw them anointing with oil someone who had the flu and later saw the virus spread (of course), I could not understand what they were thinking. When I saw them make all sorts of failed predictions about the Soviet Union and the end times, yet never even acknowledge their errors while continuing to make more predictions, I was baffled. Speaking in tongues was of particular interest to me because it really made no sense to me.
In the years that I've been debating creationists it's the same thing. When I see them say "no transitional fossils" or "no new genetic information" only to ignore examples of those things when they're presented, I can't relate to that way of thinking at all. When I see them demand evidence for things only to ignore it after it's provided, I can't relate. When I see them quote mine a scientific paper and after someone points it out they completely ignore it, I can't relate.
Now to be clear, I think I "understand" some of what's behind these behaviors (i.e., the psychological factors), but what I don't understand is how the people engaging in them seem to be completely oblivious to it all. What goes on in their mind when they demand "show me the evidence", ignore everything that's provided in response, and then come back later and make the same demand all over again? Are they so blinded by the need to maintain their beliefs that they literally block out all memories of it? Again....I just don't get it.
So the point of discussion for this thread is....how about you? For the "evolutionists", can you relate to the creationists' way of thinking and behaviors? For the creationists, are there behaviors from the other side that baffle you, and you just don't understand? Do you look at folks like me and think to yourselves, "I just cannot relate to his way of thinking?"
Or is it just me?
Do you understand those on the other side?
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #341I am saying that we might indeed possibly exist within a creation and that non-randomness implies mindfulness is involved in its ongoing formation...Inquirer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:29 pmAre you saying that some non-random intelligence may have been involved then?William wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:17 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #331]
The "fitness" of the organism is itself the result of assumed prior randomness. ftfy
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #342[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #335]
Inquirer: If you cannot determine the output state without first knowing the input and the input is random, then the output state too must be random.
JK: I think it's fair to state that if we can know each and every variable, and the outcome thereof, maybe an event (evolution) ain't so random.
My issue here is folks denying, for whatever reason, that evolution occurs.
As relates to the OP, this is what I'll never understand.
We can observe evolution directly when we notice our children ain't clones of us. Beyond that, we'll observe they have their own unique, if similar dna.
From those facts, it's easy to draw the conclusion that given enough change, over enough time, speciation (and taxonomically above) will occur.
So we can, if begrudgingly, allow that evolution is a nonrandom process. That causes me little fret. What we can't deny, is that evolution occurs
William: From the position of "outsider looking in" the issue is created by the unwillingness of either fighter willing to concede the best way forward is to accept that we exist within a creation and the scientific evidence we are collecting about how that creation works has uncovered biological evolution re our particular experience of it.
Most recently our current overall impression of it through scientific means,
enables us to verify that we literally know so little that we should not allow ourself to believe we know so much, whatever direction our influences are coming from.
Fisticuffs [for real or online] are verifiably unhelpful...
Inquirer: If you cannot determine the output state without first knowing the input and the input is random, then the output state too must be random.
JK: I think it's fair to state that if we can know each and every variable, and the outcome thereof, maybe an event (evolution) ain't so random.
My issue here is folks denying, for whatever reason, that evolution occurs.
As relates to the OP, this is what I'll never understand.
We can observe evolution directly when we notice our children ain't clones of us. Beyond that, we'll observe they have their own unique, if similar dna.
From those facts, it's easy to draw the conclusion that given enough change, over enough time, speciation (and taxonomically above) will occur.
So we can, if begrudgingly, allow that evolution is a nonrandom process. That causes me little fret. What we can't deny, is that evolution occurs
William: From the position of "outsider looking in" the issue is created by the unwillingness of either fighter willing to concede the best way forward is to accept that we exist within a creation and the scientific evidence we are collecting about how that creation works has uncovered biological evolution re our particular experience of it.
Most recently our current overall impression of it through scientific means,
enables us to verify that we literally know so little that we should not allow ourself to believe we know so much, whatever direction our influences are coming from.
Fisticuffs [for real or online] are verifiably unhelpful...
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #343I too was raised in a conservative evangelical home (church twice on Sunday + midweek service) and attended a small evangelical college with daily chapel. But at least the part of that community I knew best did not preach young Earth creationism and accepted the fact of evolution while still believing God was behind it all.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:35 pm As I've pointed out many times (probably too many times), I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian environment. I was taught young-earth creationism from an early age, was told prayer and reading the Bible were the answer to most of life's problems and questions, and witnessed all sorts of "interesting" things such as speaking in tongues, faith healing, end times predictions, etc.
....
When I see them say "no transitional fossils" or "no new genetic information" only to ignore examples of those things when they're presented, I can't relate to that way of thinking at all. When I see them demand evidence for things only to ignore it after it's provided, I can't relate. When I see them quote mine a scientific paper and after someone points it out they completely ignore it, I can't relate.
....
So the point of discussion for this thread is....how about you? For the "evolutionists", can you relate to the creationists' way of thinking and behaviors? For the creationists, are there behaviors from the other side that baffle you, and you just don't understand? Do you look at folks like me and think to yourselves, "I just cannot relate to his way of thinking?"
I am with Jose Fly in that I cannot relate to the science denial and the refusal to see fantastic Bible stories as myths with symbolic rather than literal truth. I suppose when very young I may have accepted the stories. I accepted the Samson story I know. But as I got older it seemed more and more obvious that the literal and inerrant view of the Bible was the wrong approach. What I do understand is fear fundamentalists have that if they make any concession about the literal perfection of the Bible as the Holy Word of God, they will be on the slippery slope to apostasy and Hell.
But the absurdities one must allow for this "there really was a talking serpent in Eden, and all the animals got on the Ark while the entire globe was flooded, the 6000 year old Earth without evolution over 4 billion years, no. I don't get it. It strikes me as coming from a place of amazing ignorance and willful intellectual dishonesty or some kind of hideous and incurable indoctrination. I ignore the worst of these as they seemed cursed with a heavy dose of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
There are more thoughtful people of faith who are well educated and understand the story of Job, for example was a play not a literal, historical event and are at least open to the idea the myths of Genesis are not historical events. It's curious they have the imagination to accept talking snakes, Fiery Chariots flying up to Heaven, and Noah' Ark, but not the ability to understand tiny changes leading to big ones during billions of years. I put faith in fantasy in the same category as belief the world is flat.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #344There are as many variants of Christian as there are atheists. By all means call out the anecdotes that have left an impression on you, but to suggest that all Christians share the traits of what is just a subset is to misrepresent Christian thought. Just because you and Jose may have been exposed to rather primitive ignorant Christians does not say anything about Christianity.Diogenes wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:12 pmI too was raised in a conservative evangelical home (church twice on Sunday + midweek service) and attended a small evangelical college with daily chapel. But at least the part of that community I knew best did not preach young Earth creationism and accepted the fact of evolution while still believing God was behind it all.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:35 pm As I've pointed out many times (probably too many times), I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian environment. I was taught young-earth creationism from an early age, was told prayer and reading the Bible were the answer to most of life's problems and questions, and witnessed all sorts of "interesting" things such as speaking in tongues, faith healing, end times predictions, etc.
....
When I see them say "no transitional fossils" or "no new genetic information" only to ignore examples of those things when they're presented, I can't relate to that way of thinking at all. When I see them demand evidence for things only to ignore it after it's provided, I can't relate. When I see them quote mine a scientific paper and after someone points it out they completely ignore it, I can't relate.
....
So the point of discussion for this thread is....how about you? For the "evolutionists", can you relate to the creationists' way of thinking and behaviors? For the creationists, are there behaviors from the other side that baffle you, and you just don't understand? Do you look at folks like me and think to yourselves, "I just cannot relate to his way of thinking?"
I am with Jose Fly in that I cannot relate to the science denial and the refusal to see fantastic Bible stories as myths with symbolic rather than literal truth. I suppose when very young I may have accepted the stories. I accepted the Samson story I know. But as I got older it seemed more and more obvious that the literal and inerrant view of the Bible was the wrong approach. What I do understand is fear fundamentalists have that if they make any concession about the literal perfection of the Bible as the Holy Word of God, they will be on the slippery slope to apostasy and Hell.
But the absurdities one must allow for this "there really was a talking serpent in Eden, and all the animals got on the Ark while the entire globe was flooded, the 6000 year old Earth without evolution over 4 billion years, no. I don't get it. It strikes me as coming from a place of amazing ignorance and willful intellectual dishonesty or some kind of hideous and incurable indoctrination. I ignore the worst of these as they seemed cursed with a heavy dose of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
There are more thoughtful people of faith who are well educated and understand the story of Job, for example was a play not a literal, historical event and are at least open to the idea the myths of Genesis are not historical events. It's curious they have the imagination to accept talking snakes, Fiery Chariots flying up to Heaven, and Noah' Ark, but not the ability to understand tiny changes leading to big ones during billions of years. I put faith in fantasy in the same category as belief the world is flat.
There are dumb Christians just as there are dumb atheists, and dwelling on minorities and complaining about them is little more than bigotry. What is the point of this thread even, if not to attack and disparage Christians and Christian philosophy in general?
Do you think the resurrection of Christ described in the New Testament is a myth?
Last edited by Inquirer on Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #345This puzzles. First there are many more variants of Christians than non theists and atheists, AND there is a wider range of doctrines among 'Christians,' from Unitarian to extreme fundamentalist. There are six main divisions and some of those have hundreds or even thousands of variants.Inquirer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:33 pm There are as many variants of Christian as there are atheists. By all means call out the anecdotes that have left an impression on you, but to suggest that all Christians share the traits of what is just a subset is to misrepresent Christian thought. Just because you and Jose may have been exposed to rather primitive ignorant Christians does not say anything about Christianity.
There are dumb Christians just as there are dumb atheists, and dwelling on minorities and complaining about them is little more than bigotry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination
Second, I took pains, as did Jose Fly, to specify specific types of Christian experience we refereed to.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #346This is not true, not based on the OP anyway. Jose goes on to complain about "creationists" in the general sense:Diogenes wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:49 pmThis puzzles. First there are many more variants of Christians than non theists and atheists, AND there is a wider range of doctrines among 'Christians,' from Unitarian to extreme fundamentalist. There are six main divisions and some of those have hundreds or even thousands of variants.Inquirer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:33 pm There are as many variants of Christian as there are atheists. By all means call out the anecdotes that have left an impression on you, but to suggest that all Christians share the traits of what is just a subset is to misrepresent Christian thought. Just because you and Jose may have been exposed to rather primitive ignorant Christians does not say anything about Christianity.
There are dumb Christians just as there are dumb atheists, and dwelling on minorities and complaining about them is little more than bigotry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination
Second, I took pains, as did Jose Fly, to specify specific types of Christian experience we refereed to.
andIn the years that I've been debating creationists...
I would suspect that every sincere Christian regards God as the creator in some sense or other, that all Christians are creationists so I must disagree, the OP is an attack on all Christians and it begins by implying all Christians can be characterized as stupid, uneducated snake charmers, it is bigotry, unashamed bigotry.can you relate to the creationists' way of thinking and behaviors?
Attacking and disparaging people who happen to not share one's beliefs has been a cause of huge social turmoil and misery over the centuries and is not - as this thread proves - confined to the Spanish inquisition.
Last edited by Inquirer on Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #347I'm not keen on the "creation" angle, as it so often implies an intelligent, sentient entity to've "created". I accept the universe exists as a real thing, and not a figment of imagination - while making no claims to know how it either came to be, or always was.William wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:47 pm From the position of "outsider looking in" the issue is created by the unwillingness of either fighter willing to concede the best way forward is to accept that we exist within a creation and the scientific evidence we are collecting about how that creation works has uncovered biological evolution re our particular experience of it.
Which is why I don't refer to it as a "creation".Most recently our current overall impression of it through scientific means, ... enables us to verify that we literally know so little that we should not allow ourself to believe we know so much, whatever direction our influences are coming from.
I see no fists flying, only vigorous debate.Fisticuffs [for real or online] are verifiably unhelpful...
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #348At best.
Do you think it's literal truth?
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #349As opposed to what other kind of truth?
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?
Post #350Mandatory response...Diogenes wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:49 pmThis puzzles. First there are many more variants of Christians than non theists and atheists, AND there is a wider range of doctrines among 'Christians,' from Unitarian to extreme fundamentalist. There are six main divisions and some of those have hundreds or even thousands of variants.Inquirer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 23, 2022 2:33 pm There are as many variants of Christian as there are atheists. By all means call out the anecdotes that have left an impression on you, but to suggest that all Christians share the traits of what is just a subset is to misrepresent Christian thought. Just because you and Jose may have been exposed to rather primitive ignorant Christians does not say anything about Christianity.
There are dumb Christians just as there are dumb atheists, and dwelling on minorities and complaining about them is little more than bigotry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination
Second, I took pains, as did Jose Fly, to specify specific types of Christian experience we refereed to.
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