Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

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Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

Post #1

Post by amortalman »

In a fairly recent thread, POI posted a new topic and I present it here as a preface to an offshoot topic of my own:

Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #1
Post by POI » Thu May 05, 2022 12:20 pm
Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven?
POI's follow-up post:

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #2
Post by POI » Tue May 10, 2022 4:48 pm
I find it odd that no Christian wants to chime in here? How does a Christian get to Heaven?

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other
After POI's second post a number of debaters jumped in with their favorite scripture verse or verses as to how a Christian can get to heaven. However, it didn't settle the issue definitively. And that is indicative of one of the major problems with the Bible. It just isn't that clear. In fact, it can be downright confusing. I think Dan Barker (atheist, speaker, debater, writer, and former evangelical preacher) was right when he said: Can you think of any book more confusing than the Bible?

In my humble opinion, God could have headed off all this confusion on this issue and dozens of others we find in the "holy book" by making them crystal clear. Maybe this would have prevented the splintering of Christ's church into a thousand denominations. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.

So, here is the debate question and challenge: How might the important doctrine of salvation have been presented in the scripture in a clear and coherent way that left little doubt as to the real meaning?
I am not asking for your exegesis of the relevant passages. That has been done in POI's thread. I'm asking for ideas as to how the relevant passages might have been more clearly presented so that each one separately does not confuse the whole.

By simply taking the options POI presented (and I have taken the liberty to slightly modify), How does a Christian get to heaven? Is it by grace alone, faith alone, works alone, grace+faith, grace+works, faith+works, or another way?

I have my own thoughts on this but I will reserve them for later. I want to hear your ideas.

So, if it were up to you, how might you relieve the confusion over this teaching?
Last edited by amortalman on Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

Post #51

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:32 pm But to know this, Paul must have known something about christian doctrine and salvation!
Sure he did, it is called word of mouth.

And besides, I know about Scientology...but I don't know about its doctrine, specifically.

So what?
Note also that after his vision reformed him he knew exactly how to find grace.
His only headache was how to get christian churches.to believe him that he got saved!
Keyword: after.
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Re: Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

Post #52

Post by amortalman »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:20 pm
The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:20 pm Are you are born again evangelical christian?

If yes, and you were in a church your fellow believers would have told you that unbelievers need it most to ask this questions.
No one is saying don't answer the question...but still.

Case point; the subject matter of this thread.
I seriously doubt that the OP will be any closer to becoming a believer than he/she was before the question was posed.

So, whats the point? Which leads back to my original question of...why are you asking questions about Biblical salvation besides your need to have a debate about Biblical salvation?
If it were possible I would be further from becoming a believer.

If I may, I would like to revisit the following two paragraphs from the OP:

"After POI's second post a number of debaters jumped in with their favorite scripture verse or verses as to how a Christian can get to heaven. However, it didn't settle the issue definitively. And that is indicative of one of the major problems with the Bible. It just isn't that clear. In fact, it can be downright confusing. I think Dan Barker (atheist, speaker, debater, writer, and former evangelical preacher) was right when he said: Can you think of any book more confusing than the Bible?

"In my humble opinion, God could have headed off all this confusion on this issue and dozens of others we find in the "holy book" by making them crystal clear. Maybe this would have prevented the splintering of Christ's church into a thousand denominations. It certainly wouldn't have hurt."

I thought I made it clear where I was coming from and what I was getting at. But, as I've said before, it's the writer's (poster's) responsibility to write clearly enough so that there's little doubt about what he's trying to say. Obviously, VENOM misunderstood. So, I'll repeat myself: I'm sure that if you re-read the OP you'll see that its purpose is not to garner information on God or the Bible, but rather to expose the ridiculous notion that any kind of God was involved in its making. Perhaps I should have included that it was never my intention to debate salvation. I simply picked one doctrine as an example of rampant confusion that exists in scripture, and because of the confusion, it could not have been inspired by an all-knowing, all-powerful God because that kind of God would not have his servants write his message to mankind that generated so much controversy, confusion, and contradictions. Therefore, not having been written by God, there is no good reason to form religions around it. What I have discovered is that theists either deny there is any confusion or that they give their opinion on what is required for salvation, which only reinforces the fact of confusion.

Finally, no one ever has offered any good evidence that God even exists. In fact, there is some very good evidence that the God of the Bible does not exist.

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Re: Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

Post #53

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

amortalman wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:09 pm [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #46]

VENOM wrote:
"If you do not believe God doesn't exist...then that is it." (???)

"Nothing more needs to be said."

I'm sorry, but there is plenty more to be said. Atheists have been responding on this site to the unreasonable claims of theists since it began. Apparently, we are welcome to participate. But if you don't want to participate you're free not to. It seems that you're worried about how I spend my time. Be concerned about how you spend your time, not how I spend mine. May I remind you of your comment in Post #30?
Venom wrote: "It is pointless to discuss what it takes to be saved, with a group of people who dont believe in salvation." By your own admission, you are the one wasting your own time.
Um, no.

It is folks like you who keep apologists like me in business.
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Re: Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

Post #54

Post by William »

[Replying to amortalman in post #1]

So, here is the debate question and challenge:

Q: How might the important doctrine of salvation have been presented in the scripture in a clear and coherent way that left little doubt as to the real meaning?

[I'm asking for ideas as to how the relevant passages might have been more clearly presented so that each one separately does not confuse the whole.]

A: It isn't the case that the doctrine could have been presented more coherently, but more that fact that Humans generally are not overly coherent.

If we examine the idea of the God of the Bible sitting down and dictating the relevant details of our way to salvation, we would still debate the details rather than just get about believing...

On top of that, we would debate whether the God looked the part of a God and we would probably bear arms about it...since they would be waving about anywhoo...

And that's just a couple of examples of ripple effect to such a thing...

The question is a cart before the horse as it fist must be established as to why the Bible God made us so incoherent. Perhaps the answer to that can help us understand the doctrine...

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Re: Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

Post #55

Post by amortalman »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:36 pm
amortalman wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:09 pm [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #46]

VENOM wrote:
"If you do not believe God doesn't exist...then that is it." (???)

"Nothing more needs to be said."

I'm sorry, but there is plenty more to be said. Atheists have been responding on this site to the unreasonable claims of theists since it began. Apparently, we are welcome to participate. But if you don't want to participate you're free not to. It seems that you're worried about how I spend my time. Be concerned about how you spend your time, not how I spend mine. May I remind you of your comment in Post #30?
Venom wrote: "It is pointless to discuss what it takes to be saved, with a group of people who dont believe in salvation." By your own admission, you are the one wasting your own time.
Um, no.

It is folks like you who keep apologists like me in business.
Um, yes. By your own admission.

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Re: Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

Post #56

Post by amortalman »

William wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:39 pm [Replying to amortalman in post #1]

So, here is the debate question and challenge:

Q: How might the important doctrine of salvation have been presented in the scripture in a clear and coherent way that left little doubt as to the real meaning?

[I'm asking for ideas as to how the relevant passages might have been more clearly presented so that each one separately does not confuse the whole.]
A: It isn't the case that the doctrine could have been presented more coherently, but more that fact that Humans generally are not overly coherent.
I disagree. I think most people are coherent. But don't you think that statement might be insulting to all the Bible students, teachers, scholars, and seminary professors who take divergent views on any doctrine in the Bible?
If we examine the idea of the God of the Bible sitting down and dictating the relevant details of our way to salvation, we would still debate the details rather than just get about believing...
It doesn't have to be complicated. Spell it out like one, two, three. Or at the very least try to head off any misunderstanding. If I may be so bold I would like to offer my humble suggestion on one such verse: Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. God says: "Hold on a minute, Mark. You haven't been listening to my Spirit. If you use those exact words a lot of folks are gonna think they have to be baptized to be saved along with believing. Just not true. In fact, in a couple of thousand years, there would be a whole denomination of Christians who will think that if they don't get dunked in water they will go to hell. That would be pure hell (pardon the expression) if one is about to die and there's no river nearby. So strike the baptizing part and next time you start to write be more careful, I can't hold your hand all the time."
On top of that, we would debate whether the God looked the part of a God and we would probably bear arms about it...since they would be waving about anywhoo...
Now that would be a good thing!
And that's just a couple of examples of ripple effect to such a thing...
You're right. God just isn't up to the task.
The question is a cart before the horse as it fist must be established as to why the Bible God made us so incoherent. Perhaps the answer to that can help us understand the doctrine...
That's a good question. My guess is we inherited it from chimpanzees.

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Re: Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

Post #57

Post by William »

[Replying to amortalman in post #56]
It doesn't have to be complicated. Spell it out like one, two, three. Or at the very least try to head off any misunderstanding. If I may be so bold I would like to offer my humble suggestion on one such verse: Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. God says: "Hold on a minute, Mark. You haven't been listening to my Spirit. If you use those exact words a lot of folks are gonna think they have to be baptized to be saved along with believing. Just not true. In fact, in a couple of thousand years, there would be a whole denomination of Christians who will think that if they don't get dunked in water they will go to hell. That would be pure hell (pardon the expression) if one is about to die and there's no river nearby. So strike the baptizing part and next time you start to write be more careful, I can't hold your hand all the time."
Unless what is experienced by folk in the next phase is determined by our own personality and accompanying attitude, and some of those - perhaps even most [at that point re biblical warnings and what have you] die only to experience some type of hell which they simply created for themselves.

Perhaps YHWH thought it was appropriate enough not to intervene as you suggest he should have?

Ultimately we each have to deal with our demons...
The question is a cart before the horse as it fist must be established as to why the Bible God made us so incoherent. Perhaps the answer to that can help us understand the doctrine...
That's a good question. My guess is we inherited it from chimpanzees.
Unlikely - More likely that we inherited it from the collective specie memories through the DNA coding and it is up to each of us to deactivate the less attractive aspects while strengthening the more attractive aspects.

Those are the angels and demons we are dealing with in the shadowy realms of the subconscious....inherited Archetypes...

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Re: Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

Post #58

Post by amortalman »

William wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:42 pm [Replying to amortalman in post #56]
It doesn't have to be complicated. Spell it out like one, two, three. Or at the very least try to head off any misunderstanding. If I may be so bold I would like to offer my humble suggestion on one such verse: Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. God says: "Hold on a minute, Mark. You haven't been listening to my Spirit. If you use those exact words a lot of folks are gonna think they have to be baptized to be saved along with believing. Just not true. In fact, in a couple of thousand years, there would be a whole denomination of Christians who will think that if they don't get dunked in water they will go to hell. That would be pure hell (pardon the expression) if one is about to die and there's no river nearby. So strike the baptizing part and next time you start to write be more careful, I can't hold your hand all the time."
Unless what is experienced by folk in the next phase is determined by our own personality and accompanying attitude, and some of those - perhaps even most [at that point re biblical warnings and what have you] die only to experience some type of hell which they simply created for themselves.
Sorry. Would you clarify that?
Perhaps YHWH thought it was appropriate enough not to intervene as you suggest he should have?
If there was/is a God he did just that. Why make what is arguably the most important teaching in the NT clear?
Ultimately we each have to deal with our demons...
Theists can deal with demons. The rest of us are dealing with real-life stuff. Like inflation, nuclear threats, world hunger, famine, and what to get little Suzy for her birthday.
The question is a cart before the horse as it fist must be established as to why the Bible God made us so incoherent. Perhaps the answer to that can help us understand the doctrine...
That's a good question. My guess is we inherited it from chimpanzees.
Unlikely - More likely that we inherited it from the collective specie memories through the DNA coding and it is up to each of us to deactivate the less attractive aspects while strengthening the more attractive aspects.
I don't think each of us can deactivate and strengthen DNA coding. It would take a geneticist and a lab. I think they're capable already to do that. That's the beauty of science. It has done so much more for humanity than religion.
Those are the angels and demons we are dealing with in the shadowy realms of the subconscious....inherited Archetypes...
There are no angels or demons in our subconscious minds. Only chemistry.

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Re: Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

Post #59

Post by William »

William: Unless what is experienced by folk in the next phase is determined by our own personality and accompanying attitude, and some of those - perhaps even most [at that point re biblical warnings and what have you] die only to experience some type of hell which they simply created for themselves.

[Replying to amortalman in post #58]

Sorry. Would you clarify that?
You create whatever experience you will have in the next phase based upon the type of personality you shaped your self into during this one.
Perhaps YHWH thought it was appropriate enough not to intervene as you suggest he should have?
If there was/is a God he did just that.
Since we are assuming that there is, then yes.
Why make what is arguably the most important teaching in the NT clear?
Why do you think it is not clear? You live, then you die, then you experience the fruits of your own personality.
Ultimately we each have to deal with our demons...
Theists can deal with demons.
It's an expression.

Search Suggestion: "dealing with your own demons meaning".

Non-theists also go through such process...
The question is a cart before the horse as it fist must be established as to why the Bible God made us so incoherent.
My guess is we inherited it from chimpanzees.
Unlikely - More likely that we inherited it from the collective specie memories through the DNA coding and it is up to each of us to deactivate the less attractive aspects while strengthening the more attractive aspects.
I don't think each of us can deactivate and strengthen DNA coding.
Does that mean we can't? There are collective traits which have been subverted through various means which have helped humans move to more coherent means of dealing with issues...
It would take a geneticist and a lab. I think they're capable already to do that. That's the beauty of science. It has done so much more for humanity than religion.
I will leave that to theists and atheists to bash out.

I do acknowledge that the serious life-threating problems of modern humanity have been largely due to scientific advances so seeing beauty by having to pretend the ugly isn't there...is more a case of Cognitive Bias.
Those are the angels and demons we are dealing with in the shadowy realms of the subconscious....inherited Archetypes...
There are no angels or demons in our subconscious minds. Only chemistry.
You are confusing mind with brain.

Search Suggestion: "Jungian Archetypes"

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Re: Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

Post #60

Post by amortalman »

William wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:00 pm William: Unless what is experienced by folk in the next phase is determined by our own personality and accompanying attitude, and some of those - perhaps even most [at that point re biblical warnings and what have you] die only to experience some type of hell which they simply created for themselves.

[Replying to amortalman in post #58]

Sorry. Would you clarify that?
You create whatever experience you will have in the next phase based upon the type of personality you shaped your self into during this one.
You must have come up with that belief from some source other than the Bible.
Why do you think it is not clear?
I've thoroughly covered that already.
You live, then you die, then you experience the fruits of your own personality.
non-Biblical
Ultimately we each have to deal with our demons...
Theists can deal with demons.
It's an expression.

Of course, it is. But it comes from the Bible.
The question is a cart before the horse as it fist must be established as to why the Bible God made us so incoherent.
That does not have to be established at all. God has made no one either coherent or incoherent.
Those are the angels and demons we are dealing with in the shadowy realms of the subconscious....inherited Archetypes...
There are no angels or demons in our subconscious minds. Only chemistry.
You are confusing mind with brain.
To show that I'm confused you would have to bring convincing evidence that the mind is a separate entity from the brain. As far as I know, science hasn't done that yet. I only trust science.

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