Homosexuality: nature or nurture?

[Wootah]

Hi all

As of 29 July 2022. What does the science say? What do you think?

Homosexuality: nature or nurture?

[Difflugia]

Perhaps we should avoid the kink-shaming. It's popular enough that there are whole genres of multiple media devoted to it.

I saw a movie about it once. I didn't inhale, though. Or whatever.

This isn't about a kink, it's about what I said earlier, "sticking one's nose in people's private lives without their consent"

Yeah, that was meant as a bit of sarcastic snark. I probably shouldn't have deadpanned it.

[Jose Fly]

Perhaps we should avoid the kink-shaming. It's popular enough that there are whole genres of multiple media devoted to it.

I saw a movie about it once. I didn't inhale, though. Or whatever.

This isn't about a kink, it's about what I said earlier, "sticking one's nose in people's private lives without their consent"

Yeah, that was meant as a bit of sarcastic snark. I probably shouldn't have deadpanned it.

Phew...you had me worried for a sec!

[Purple Knight]

Homosexuality: nature or nurture?

I find it hard to believe people would put their penises in... there... unless someone, somehow, suggested it to them. (That's different than not being attracted to females, or being attracted to males. That can obviously be nature. I'm talking about the behaviour.)

But what do I know. I've had a tank of mice doing it (male-male dominance humping) and I can say for certain that I didn't teach them how. What makes this complicated is that it seems that when a male mouse has been dominance-humped, he's far more likely to go out and dominance-hump some other male himself. So it's learned. And it's inherent... Otherwise how would it start up? Even if it is a chain, it started somewhere.

[Wootah]

Homosexuality: nature or nurture?

I find it hard to believe people would put their penises in... there... unless someone, somehow, suggested it to them. (That's different than not being attracted to females, or being attracted to males. That can obviously be nature. I'm talking about the behaviour.)

But what do I know. I've had a tank of mice doing it (male-male dominance humping) and I can say for certain that I didn't teach them how. What makes this complicated is that it seems that when a male mouse has been dominance-humped, he's far more likely to go out and dominance-hump some other male himself. So it's learned. And it's inherent... Otherwise how would it start up? Even if it is a chain, it started somewhere.

My understanding of Roman culture is that in the hierarchy they would 'dominance hump' those lower down the ladder. Our belief in what we would and wouldn't do is very cultural.

https://agnituslife.com/sex-roman-style/

[Jose Fly]

I find it hard to believe people would put their penises in... there... unless someone, somehow, suggested it to them. (That's different than not being attracted to females, or being attracted to males. That can obviously be nature. I'm talking about the behaviour.)

So because you personally can't imagine it, that means it must be learned behavior? That doesn't seem at all logical.

[Purple Knight]

I find it hard to believe people would put their penises in... there... unless someone, somehow, suggested it to them. (That's different than not being attracted to females, or being attracted to males. That can obviously be nature. I'm talking about the behaviour.)

So because you personally can't imagine it, that means it must be learned behavior? That doesn't seem at all logical.

Some psychologists (Maslow for example) claim that humans don't have instincts at all, meaning (at least, I take it to mean) that males mating with females and putting their penises in vaginas would also be because someone suggested it to them.

Plus, I did also admit that the claim that it is learned would defy the purely logical necessity that somebody had to be the first to do it.

From the mice I think it's both. Removing the dominance humpers from the tank and allowing the babies to grow up without ever being dominance humped massively reduced, but did not eliminate the behaviour. It would arise again. But this might be because mice do have instincts and might not apply to humans.

Our belief in what we would and wouldn't do is very cultural.

Agreed.

[Jose Fly]

Some psychologists (Maslow for example) claim that humans don't have instincts at all, meaning (at least, I take it to mean) that males mating with females and putting their penises in vaginas would also be because someone suggested it to them.

And I'm sure other psychologists argue differently.

Plus, I did also admit that the claim that it is learned would defy the purely logical necessity that somebody had to be the first to do it.

From the mice I think it's both. Removing the dominance humpers from the tank and allowing the babies to grow up without ever being dominance humped massively reduced, but did not eliminate the behaviour. It would arise again. But this might be because mice do have instincts and might not apply to humans.

Okay.

[Purple Knight]

Some psychologists (Maslow for example) claim that humans don't have instincts at all, meaning (at least, I take it to mean) that males mating with females and putting their penises in vaginas would also be because someone suggested it to them.

And I'm sure other psychologists argue differently.

They do. But I think the smell-test is valuable. So let's use yours. I give yours equal weight to mine.

Let's say you have a baby you raise in a box, perhaps a couple of them, males and females. They might develop their own language, since the desire for language seems innate. But will they figure out successful mating, never having seen or heard of it? What do you think?

[Jose Fly]

Let's say you have a baby you raise in a box, perhaps a couple of them, males and females. They might develop their own language, since the desire for language seems innate. But will they figure out successful mating, never having seen or heard of it? What do you think?

Before we go down that trail, the question that's relevant to this thread is about sexual attraction, not how one actually has sex.

So if the babies are both born heterosexual, both will eventually become sexually aroused by the other. The specific means by which that arousal is expressed is likely learned IMO. But the underlying attraction/arousal is innate.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #23]

Personally, I think people would and do put their penises everywhere. The mating instinct is pretty strong (because it is essential).

However: knowledge is knowing what to say. Wisdom is knowing when to say it.

I think this applies here. Yes we can put our penis anywhere and wisdom is knowing where is correct.