.
I say yes.
This thread was created in order to discuss/debate what is called the argument from design (teleological argument), which is a classical argument for the existence of God.
For more on what fine tuning is as it pertains to the argument, please read this wikipedia article..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe
Now, it is well known and established in science, that the constants and values which govern our universe is mathematically precise.
How precise?
Well, please see this article by Dr. Hugh Ross...
https://wng.org/roundups/a-fine-tuned-u ... 1617224984
Excerpt...
"More than a hundred different parameters for the universe must have values falling within narrowly defined ranges for physical life of any conceivable kind to exist." (see above article for list of parameters).
Or..(in wiki article above, on fine tuning)..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... e#Examples
When you read the articles, you will find that there isn't much room for error.
If you start with a highly chaotic, random, disordered big bang, the odds are astronomically AGAINST the manifestation of sentient, human life.
How disordered was the big bang at the onset of the expansion...well, physicist Roger Penrose calculated that the chances of life originating via random chance, was 1 chance in 10^10^123 ( The Emperor’s New Mind, pg. 341-344.....according to..
https://mathscholar.org/2017/04/is-the- ... 20universe.
That is a double exponent with 123 as the double!!
The only way to account for the fine tuning of our universe..there are only 3 possibilities..
1. Random chance: Well, we just addressed this option..and to say not likely is the biggest understatement in the history of understatements.
If you have 1 chance in 10^10^123 to accomplish something, it is safe to say IT AIN'T HAPPENING.
2. Necessity: This option is a no-go..because the constants and parameters could have been any values..in other words, it wasn't necessary for the parameters to have those specific values at the onset of the big bang.
3. Design: Bingo. First off, since the first two options are negated, then #3 wins by default...and no explanation is even needed, as it logically follows that #3 wins (whether we like it or not). However, I will provide a little insight.
You see, the constants and values which govern our universe had to have been set, as an INITIAL CONDITION of the big bang. By "set", I mean selectively chosen.
It is impossible for mother nature to have pre-selected anything, because nature is exactly what came in to being at the moment of the big bang.
So, not only (if intelligent design is negated) do we have a singularity sitting around for eons and expanding for reasons which cannot be determined (which is part of the absurdity), but we also have this singularity expanding with very low entropy (10^10^!23), which completely defies everything we know about entropy, to a degree which has never been duplicated since.
So, we have a positive reasons to believe in intelligent design...an intelligent design...a Cosmic Creator/Engineer...
We have positive reasons to believe in a God of the universe.
In closing...
1. No need to downplay fine tuning, because in the wiki article, you will see the fact that scientists are scrambling to try to find an explanation for fine tuning..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... planations
If there was no fine tuning, then you wouldn't need offer any explanations to explain it away, now would you?
2. Unless you can provide a fourth option to the above three options, then please spare me the "but there may be more options" stuff.
If that is what you believe, then tell me what they are, and I will gladly ADD THEM TO THE LIST AND EXPLAIN WHY THEY ALSO FAIL.
3. 10^10^123. Ouch.
Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #231[Replying to Diogenes in post #230]
I am procuring information which helps me scientifically delve into the world of consciousness.
Re: Generating Messages
Example
This amounts to evidence which can be studied, and for that matter, what I am publishing here are on other forums is of interest to readers.
Your personal lack of interest is of no interest to me any more than your 'tiredness' in 'trying to explain' is, as I get my explanations from better sources...
I am procuring information which helps me scientifically delve into the world of consciousness.
Re: Generating Messages
Example
This amounts to evidence which can be studied, and for that matter, what I am publishing here are on other forums is of interest to readers.
Your personal lack of interest is of no interest to me any more than your 'tiredness' in 'trying to explain' is, as I get my explanations from better sources...
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #232[Replying to Inquirer in post #222]
Yes, but what use is such a comparison? It allows the vague explanation of virtually anything so is useless. How do we know that clouds are actually suspended H2O droplets and not just made to look that way, with the physical and optical measurements we make to confirm that they are suspended H2O droplets also manipulated to make us think this?Nevertheless, it is a true statement there is no way to distinguish those two cases.
With the same probability that god beings exist. If the probability is incredibly small, but not zero, then it isn't absolutely zero. Without any god or creator beings known to exist of any kind, there is no reason to believe that the universe is "fine tuned" because there is no tuner. Inferring fine tuning obviously requires assumption of a god being or creator of some sort. Inferring that the universe is not fine tuned requires no assumptions of things that have not been shown to exist.So the universe might actually be fine tuned then, that's what you're saying. People inferring that from observations are just as justified as those not inferring it.
Textbook circular reasoning. Everything in the universe, including life, exists because the physical constants happened to land on the values they have by whatever mechanism.The fine tuning is evidence of a creator, we infer creator from fine tunning and infer fine tuning from the extreme specificity of various constants.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #233If it was fine tuned for us then I would expect to see a much simpler universe and an earthly environment far less inhospitable to life. There is no need for billions of galaxies with trillions of stars and planets all rushing away at an accelerating rate. Deadly explosions and energy bursts threatening any potential life forms within a proximity of countless light years. Even our solar system could have been simpler without an assortment of toxic and deadly planets that offer almost everyone who has ever lived nothing more than points of light in the sky to observe. Then there are asteroids and comets that threaten our existence through the ever present possibility of cataclysmic collisions. Earth itself consists of a thin crust floating on molten rock that regularly bursts through with destructive consequences. Much of the planet in inhospitable to human habitation with people struggling to eke out meager existences under harsh conditions. And it was all finely tuned just for us. Yeah, right.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #235Not to mention the 'fine tuning' that allows deadly and crippling viruses, toxins, and birth defects.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:19 pmIf it was fine tuned for us then I would expect to see a much simpler universe and an earthly environment far less inhospitable to life. There is no need for billions of galaxies with trillions of stars and planets all rushing away at an accelerating rate. Deadly explosions and energy bursts threatening any potential life forms within a proximity of countless light years. Even our solar system could have been simpler without an assortment of toxic and deadly planets that offer almost everyone who has ever lived nothing more than points of light in the sky to observe. Then there are asteroids and comets that threaten our existence through the ever present possibility of cataclysmic collisions. Earth itself consists of a thin crust floating on molten rock that regularly bursts through with destructive consequences. Much of the planet in inhospitable to human habitation with people struggling to eke out meager existences under harsh conditions. And it was all finely tuned just for us.
A universe 'fine tuned' for us would have rendered us Supermen, like Kal-El from Krypton sent to a planet with a yellow sun where we would have "powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men."
BTW, as a kid and DC Comics fan in the 1950s and early 60s it was not lost on me that Superman's creators were Jewish and took their inspiration for Superman from Jewish and Biblical myths.
https://forward.com/culture/504342/supe ... ses-golem/
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #236Or just speak to me "in my thoughts". On that notion - maybe my auditory hallucinations reflect this as happening.William wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:43 pmDo you mean - have someone from the past turn up at your door, or some such thing like that?JK wrote: You cleared up for me a problem I couldn't quite sort out. I'd previously thought, "Wouldn't this consciousness be able to, say, have a long lost friend speak to me?"
I was considering how the absence of the above - an old friend coming "to my mind" - might be the Cosmic Mind exploring the impact of missing my old friend.Not sure if we are on the same page here JK - is it along the lines of if I asked for rain in Colorado, and it happened, one who believes in coincidence wouldn't shift to believing that the planet was Conscious and responded to my request?Jk wrote:Now though I realize that if you're correct, there's the idea of 'simulating' how my unique, if not truly individual consciousness would react to such a condition.
If I failed to explain myself, let me just tell this... I'm still not seeing a way to refute your position. As I try to play out different scenarios, it seems as if I'm answering myself.
That last bit's an interesting bit itself.
I'm still firmly in the "product of the brain" camp, but your hypothesis is a fascinating alternate explanation. While it may appear to propose a 'god', to my -ahem- mind, it lacks the baggage of so many such claims.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #237Why do you seem to think that God must conform to your expectations else he doesn't exist? God is not trying to save us physically, preserve our physical well being, the NT discusses this at length, the material physical existence is not why we exist.Diogenes wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:43 pmNot to mention the 'fine tuning' that allows deadly and crippling viruses, toxins, and birth defects.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:19 pmIf it was fine tuned for us then I would expect to see a much simpler universe and an earthly environment far less inhospitable to life. There is no need for billions of galaxies with trillions of stars and planets all rushing away at an accelerating rate. Deadly explosions and energy bursts threatening any potential life forms within a proximity of countless light years. Even our solar system could have been simpler without an assortment of toxic and deadly planets that offer almost everyone who has ever lived nothing more than points of light in the sky to observe. Then there are asteroids and comets that threaten our existence through the ever present possibility of cataclysmic collisions. Earth itself consists of a thin crust floating on molten rock that regularly bursts through with destructive consequences. Much of the planet in inhospitable to human habitation with people struggling to eke out meager existences under harsh conditions. And it was all finely tuned just for us.
A universe 'fine tuned' for us would have rendered us Supermen, like Kal-El from Krypton sent to a planet with a yellow sun where we would have "powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men."
BTW, as a kid and DC Comics fan in the 1950s and early 60s it was not lost on me that Superman's creators were Jewish and took their inspiration for Superman from Jewish and Biblical myths.
https://forward.com/culture/504342/supe ... ses-golem/
So the implication that God doesn't exist and God cannot have created the universe because if he had this or that would not happen, is flawed.
You cannot assess God's motives or reasons for doing things unless you know God's goals and I don't think you do.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #238Yes - there is a lot of information to factor into the equation...JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:21 amOr just speak to me "in my thoughts". On that notion - maybe my auditory hallucinations reflect this as happening.William wrote: ↑Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:43 pmDo you mean - have someone from the past turn up at your door, or some such thing like that?JK wrote: You cleared up for me a problem I couldn't quite sort out. I'd previously thought, "Wouldn't this consciousness be able to, say, have a long lost friend speak to me?"
I was considering how the absence of the above - an old friend coming "to my mind" - might be the Cosmic Mind exploring the impact of missing my old friend.Not sure if we are on the same page here JK - is it along the lines of if I asked for rain in Colorado, and it happened, one who believes in coincidence wouldn't shift to believing that the planet was Conscious and responded to my request?Jk wrote:Now though I realize that if you're correct, there's the idea of 'simulating' how my unique, if not truly individual consciousness would react to such a condition.
If I failed to explain myself, let me just tell this... I'm still not seeing a way to refute your position. As I try to play out different scenarios, it seems as if I'm answering myself.
That last bit's an interesting bit itself.
I'm still firmly in the "product of the brain" camp, but your hypothesis is a fascinating alternate explanation. While it may appear to propose a 'god', to my -ahem- mind, it lacks the baggage of so many such claims.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #239[Replying to Inquirer in post #237]
Then what is the point of our physical existence? If the entire universe is "fine tuned" for humans to exist, and this is not based on our material physical existence, what is it based on? If it is some sort of spiritual existence, why bother with frail and short-lived human bodies and their physical existence at all? A universe of spirits pervading its space would seem to make a lot more sense (if you believe in spirits and souls and that sort of thing).... the material physical existence is not why we exist.
Then is the purpose of the physical existence some sort of test period to measure the suitability for an afterlife of some kind? I suppose you'd have to know the motives of the god in question to answer that question, and if that isn't known then any guess is as good as any other as to why we humans do have a material physical existence. If the NT explains it, would that not allow one to infer the god's motives?You cannot assess God's motives or reasons for doing things unless you know God's goals and I don't think you do.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #240[Replying to DrNoGods in post #239]
What does the physical existence provide for us?
Experience.
Creating personality through the experience.
In that, it is as much a 'test' as a video game might be to a player.
Then what is the point of our physical existence?
What does the physical existence provide for us?
Experience.
Creating personality through the experience.
It [the purpose]has to be based on our material physical existenceIf the entire universe is "fine tuned" for humans to exist, and this is not based on our material physical existence, what is it based on?
Perhaps for the experience, and how that experience might assist us in creating another universe to experience.If it is some sort of spiritual existence, why bother with frail and short-lived human bodies and their physical existence at all?
This might be part of it, yes. One creates their own experience [conscious or unconscious of knowing that information] and brings ones personality into that experience.Then is the purpose of the physical existence some sort of test period to measure the suitability for an afterlife of some kind?
In that, it is as much a 'test' as a video game might be to a player.
If I were the GOD who created this universe, it would have been for the purpose of wanting to experience it - and maybe even forget myself for a long while, while I play around in it, and in any other branch-experience ["afterlife/next level/phase] which derives from that process.I suppose you'd have to know the motives of the god in question to answer that question, and if that isn't known then any guess is as good as any other as to why we humans do have a material physical existence.