Who decides?

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Rose2020
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Who decides?

Post #1

Post by Rose2020 »

A young boy is in the news headlines, in the UK today. Doctors say he is dead, that the machines keeping him alive must be switched off. His parents disagree, his mother says her instinct tells her he is still alive and has a chance. His family wish to leave it to God, in whom they place their faith. Yet doctors are the trained medical experts on whom we all depend normally. An earthly court must decide - what a task!

This is a tragic dilemma. The question is, whose opinion is or should be, the right one?

My own humble opinion is that more time should be allowed, a reasonable period decided. This is a 12 year old beloved child. Patients have woken from comas before. God does work miracles, He answers sincere prayers.

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Purple Knight
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Re: Who decides?

Post #11

Post by Purple Knight »

I don't think anyone has the right to decide that.

But if you decide that someone (for example) without a head is meaningfully alive I will disagree. (As for this particular child I don't know.)

You can say this is messy but I don't think it is. The parents can keep him "alive" if they want but not with my money if I disagree that he's meaningfully alive. They also don't have the right to force the doctors to help if they have said it's time to give up. If nobody knows, and nobody really can know this, revert it to libertarian every-man-for-himself.

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Re: Who decides?

Post #12

Post by RightReason »

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
― Mark Twain


“A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche


"Faith is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have evidence."
― Matt Dillahunty


“Faith is the death of intelligence.”

― Robert Anton Wilson,


“I had to deny knowledge in order to make room for faith. My loss”
― Immanuel Kant,


“Faith can be very very dangerous, and to deliberately implant it into the vulnerable mind of an innocent child is a grievous wrong.”

― Richard Dawkins,


“There are those who scoff at the schoolboy, calling him frivolous and
shallow: Yet it was the schoolboy who said 'Faith is believing what you
know ain't so'.”

― Mark Twain,


“Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith! Banish me from Eden when you will; but first let me eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge!”
― Robert G. Ingersoll


“Faith, the least exclusive club on Earth, has the craftiest doorman. Every time I've stepped through its wide-open doorway, I find myself stepping out on the street again.”
― David Mitchell,


“Science adjusts its views based on what's observed
Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.”

― Tim Minchin


. . .
Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods.
C.S. LEWIS

Faith means you have it in your heart before you have it in your circumstances.
KIMBERLY JONES-POTHIER


All I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen.
RALPH WALDO EMERSON

Faiths… all faiths… are admonitions that there is something we cannot understand, something to which we are accountable.
DAN BROWN


Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
HEBREWS 11:1


Faith is taking the first step even when you don’t see the whole staircase.
MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.


Faith is not belief without proof, but trust without reservation.
D. ELTON TRUEBLOOD

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
C.S. LEWIS


Never be afraid to trust an unknown future to a known God.
CORRIE TEN BOOM

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amortalman
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Re: Who decides?

Post #13

Post by amortalman »

Rose2020 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:51 am A young boy is in the news headlines, in the UK today. Doctors say he is dead, that the machines keeping him alive must be switched off. His parents disagree, his mother says her instinct tells her he is still alive and has a chance. His family wish to leave it to God, in whom they place their faith. Yet doctors are the trained medical experts on whom we all depend normally. An earthly court must decide - what a task!

This is a tragic dilemma. The question is, whose opinion is or should be, the right one?

My own humble opinion is that more time should be allowed, a reasonable period decided. This is a 12 year old beloved child. Patients have woken from comas before. God does work miracles, He answers sincere prayers.
I am confident that the doctors who are treating the child have thoroughly explained to the parents the medical reasons supporting their decision. In the interest of compassion for the parents, the doctors should go slowly and gently, perhaps asking the parents what they would deem a reasonable time frame for God to work a miracle. This would give mom time to accept the position that it might be God's will to call their son home.

All that aside, I personally don't believe in miracles or a miracle maker. I believe that there are events that may look like miracles but can be explained by other phenomena. But if one has strong faith and goes looking for a miracle he is likely to find one that satisfies his own subjective beliefs. Religious people often call many unlikely events miracles when no miracle is called for. I do hope the boy recovers.

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Rose2020
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Re: Who decides?

Post #14

Post by Rose2020 »

I take your point, wisdom with kindness is needed in this awful situation.

Yet Jesus does do miracles. I have answers to prayers daily and in important aspects of my life. Jesus does heal, for those who pray sincerely. Often the miracles are unseen and on a spiritual basis, which is what really matters. I hope the boy and his family feel God's healing power. It could be that the boy's time has come, death must happen as for us all, in which case his family needs strength and comfort from God to continue living.

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Re: Who decides?

Post #15

Post by Tcg »

Rose2020 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:11 am
Yet Jesus does do miracles.
You've yet to provide evidence of this or even attempt to do so. Your testimony is useless without it at least in this debate setting.


Tcg
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Rose2020
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Re: Who decides?

Post #16

Post by Rose2020 »

Evidence is often hard to provide, it is necessarily anecdotal. However, there are documented cases of people with serious injuries or illnesses who recovered in ways doctors could not explain.

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Re: Who decides?

Post #17

Post by Wootah »

Rose2020 wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:51 am A young boy is in the news headlines, in the UK today. Doctors say he is dead, that the machines keeping him alive must be switched off. His parents disagree, his mother says her instinct tells her he is still alive and has a chance. His family wish to leave it to God, in whom they place their faith. Yet doctors are the trained medical experts on whom we all depend normally. An earthly court must decide - what a task!

This is a tragic dilemma. The question is, whose opinion is or should be, the right one?

My own humble opinion is that more time should be allowed, a reasonable period decided. This is a 12 year old beloved child. Patients have woken from comas before. God does work miracles, He answers sincere prayers.
Given how much money the state wastes of keeping criminals alive in jail I think they can waste more on this child.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Rose2020
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Re: Who decides?

Post #18

Post by Rose2020 »

The time comes for goodbye, to let go. I pray for the family of young Archie. Doctors do not pronounce such decisions without very good reason and we should trust in them and in God.
I hope his mother and family have peace and strength to grieve, to come to terms with this tragedy.

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Re: Who decides?

Post #19

Post by Tcg »

Rose2020 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:28 am Evidence is often hard to provide, it is necessarily anecdotal. However, there are documented cases of people with serious injuries or illnesses who recovered in ways doctors could not explain.
There are a great many things doctors can't explain. This is not evidence god/gods did it, god/gods are not the default answer. It is evidence that doctors can't explain some things. Nothing earthshattering about that.


Tcg
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- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Rose2020
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Re: Who decides?

Post #20

Post by Rose2020 »

From what I can gather, it seems doctors have done all they can, it has gone way beyond a sensible point. This child needs to rest in peace.
The mother must accept it. So much time and resources have been put into this case when medical opinion is clear he was brain dead from the start. A hospice bed was not practical and an enquiry would expensive and futile. I think the mother and family must accept no wrong was done and death was inevitable.
A sad case but it needs closing now.

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