Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

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Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

Post #1

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

.

I say yes.

This thread was created in order to discuss/debate what is called the argument from design (teleological argument), which is a classical argument for the existence of God.

For more on what fine tuning is as it pertains to the argument, please read this wikipedia article..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe

Now, it is well known and established in science, that the constants and values which govern our universe is mathematically precise.

How precise?

Well, please see this article by Dr. Hugh Ross...

https://wng.org/roundups/a-fine-tuned-u ... 1617224984

Excerpt...

"More than a hundred different parameters for the universe must have values falling within narrowly defined ranges for physical life of any conceivable kind to exist." (see above article for list of parameters).

Or..(in wiki article above, on fine tuning)..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... e#Examples

When you read the articles, you will find that there isn't much room for error.

If you start with a highly chaotic, random, disordered big bang, the odds are astronomically AGAINST the manifestation of sentient, human life.

How disordered was the big bang at the onset of the expansion...well, physicist Roger Penrose calculated that the chances of life originating via random chance, was 1 chance in 10^10^123 ( The Emperor’s New Mind, pg. 341-344.....according to..

https://mathscholar.org/2017/04/is-the- ... 20universe.

That is a double exponent with 123 as the double!!

The only way to account for the fine tuning of our universe..there are only 3 possibilities..

1. Random chance: Well, we just addressed this option..and to say not likely is the biggest understatement in the history of understatements.

If you have 1 chance in 10^10^123 to accomplish something, it is safe to say IT AIN'T HAPPENING.

2. Necessity: This option is a no-go..because the constants and parameters could have been any values..in other words, it wasn't necessary for the parameters to have those specific values at the onset of the big bang.

3. Design: Bingo. First off, since the first two options are negated, then #3 wins by default...and no explanation is even needed, as it logically follows that #3 wins (whether we like it or not). However, I will provide a little insight.

You see, the constants and values which govern our universe had to have been set, as an INITIAL CONDITION of the big bang. By "set", I mean selectively chosen.

It is impossible for mother nature to have pre-selected anything, because nature is exactly what came in to being at the moment of the big bang.

So, not only (if intelligent design is negated) do we have a singularity sitting around for eons and expanding for reasons which cannot be determined (which is part of the absurdity), but we also have this singularity expanding with very low entropy (10^10^!23), which completely defies everything we know about entropy, to a degree which has never been duplicated since.

So, we have a positive reasons to believe in intelligent design...an intelligent design...a Cosmic Creator/Engineer...

We have positive reasons to believe in a God of the universe.

In closing...

1. No need to downplay fine tuning, because in the wiki article, you will see the fact that scientists are scrambling to try to find an explanation for fine tuning..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... planations

If there was no fine tuning, then you wouldn't need offer any explanations to explain it away, now would you?

2. Unless you can provide a fourth option to the above three options, then please spare me the "but there may be more options" stuff.

If that is what you believe, then tell me what they are, and I will gladly ADD THEM TO THE LIST AND EXPLAIN WHY THEY ALSO FAIL.

3. 10^10^123. Ouch.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

Post #251

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:10 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:04 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:37 am Is that true though?
When you extend me the courtesy of answering questions I put to you, I'll be happy as a hog in the mud to answer them questions you ask of me.
When you extend me the courtesy of clarifying ambiguous questions you ask me, I'll happily answer them.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

Post #252

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:01 am The OT and NT speak of these things, not linearly though, a bit here a bit there, I does seem too that if we - all of us on earth today - were given eternal life as God has, then chaos would ensue, we simply have not gained the wisdom.
I guess the millions of young children who died from the numerous God-given diseases they were blessed with had gained enough wisdom to cope with eternal life. And they are just the tip of the iceberg.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

Post #253

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:18 am
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:11 am
DrNoGods wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:00 pm Then is the purpose of the physical existence some sort of test period to measure the suitability for an afterlife of some kind?
In which case one would expect an omni-benevolent deity to have ensured a level playing field for all human beings. In reality that is very far from being the case.
There's the point I made earlier "one would expect" - God in numerous places in scripture reminds us that if we reason our own way, things will lead nowhere. This seems to be "Lesson 1" stop trying to fathom out things using human logic and reasoning, LISTEN to God.
That does not address the fact that all people do not have the same opportunities to pass any godly test, precisely what one would expect if God did not exist or at least did not care.

[sp]
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

Post #254

Post by Inquirer »

brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:59 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:01 am The OT and NT speak of these things, not linearly though, a bit here a bit there, I does seem too that if we - all of us on earth today - were given eternal life as God has, then chaos would ensue, we simply have not gained the wisdom.
I guess the millions of young children who died from the numerous God-given diseases they were blessed with had gained enough wisdom to cope with eternal life. And they are just the tip of the iceberg.
I have no real idea what you're actually trying to say here.

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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

Post #255

Post by Inquirer »

brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:04 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:18 am
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:11 am
DrNoGods wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:00 pm Then is the purpose of the physical existence some sort of test period to measure the suitability for an afterlife of some kind?
In which case one would expect an omni-benevolent deity to have ensured a level playing field for all human beings. In reality that is very far from being the case.
There's the point I made earlier "one would expect" - God in numerous places in scripture reminds us that if we reason our own way, things will lead nowhere. This seems to be "Lesson 1" stop trying to fathom out things using human logic and reasoning, LISTEN to God.
That does not address the fact that all people do not have the same opportunities to pass any godly test, precisely what one would expect if God did not exist or at least did not care.

[sp]
Yes, that is what we human, carnal minds, would expect, which is why this is written: (emphasis mine)
As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
and
After saying this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means “Sent”). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.
So we do not know to what end God has made the decisions he has, we do know that all will be healed and saved, each in their own time, own way, it's all in God's capable hands.

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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

Post #256

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:29 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:59 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:01 am The OT and NT speak of these things, not linearly though, a bit here a bit there, I does seem too that if we - all of us on earth today - were given eternal life as God has, then chaos would ensue, we simply have not gained the wisdom.
I guess the millions of young children who died from the numerous God-given diseases they were blessed with had gained enough wisdom to cope with eternal life. And they are just the tip of the iceberg.
I have no real idea what you're actually trying to say here.
Did I use words that you need to have defined for you?

Here are some more issue for you to avoid addressing:
What wisdom is required to live for eternity without chaos ensuing?
Does everyone get the opportunity to gain such wisdom?
What happens to those who never gain that wisdom?
Is there chaos in heaven?
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Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

Post #257

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:37 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:04 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:18 am
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:11 am
DrNoGods wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:00 pm Then is the purpose of the physical existence some sort of test period to measure the suitability for an afterlife of some kind?
In which case one would expect an omni-benevolent deity to have ensured a level playing field for all human beings. In reality that is very far from being the case.
There's the point I made earlier "one would expect" - God in numerous places in scripture reminds us that if we reason our own way, things will lead nowhere. This seems to be "Lesson 1" stop trying to fathom out things using human logic and reasoning, LISTEN to God.
That does not address the fact that all people do not have the same opportunities to pass any godly test, precisely what one would expect if God did not exist or at least did not care.

[sp]
Yes, that is what we human, carnal minds, would expect, which is why this is written: (emphasis mine)
As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
and
After saying this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means “Sent”). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.
So we do not know to what end God has made the decisions he has, we do know that all will be healed and saved, each in their own time, own way, it's all in God's capable hands.
Now demonstrate that any of that is actually true. We do not know anything about God at all. You have merely provided unsupported claims that are worthless.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

Post #258

Post by Inquirer »

brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:42 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:29 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:59 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:01 am The OT and NT speak of these things, not linearly though, a bit here a bit there, I does seem too that if we - all of us on earth today - were given eternal life as God has, then chaos would ensue, we simply have not gained the wisdom.
I guess the millions of young children who died from the numerous God-given diseases they were blessed with had gained enough wisdom to cope with eternal life. And they are just the tip of the iceberg.
I have no real idea what you're actually trying to say here.
Did I use words that you need to have defined for you?
Why the hostility? wasn't your original question actually sarcasm because it reads like it was which is why I sought clarification.
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:42 pm Here are some more issue for you to avoid addressing:
What wisdom is required to live for eternity without chaos ensuing?
Does everyone get the opportunity to gain such wisdom?
What happens to those who never gain that wisdom?
Is there chaos in heaven?
I was not avoiding anything, but will be doing so now. I'm done with the hostility from many here, as if I am your enemy, as if I've done you harm, I hope you enjoy the blessings of atheism.

Later.

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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

Post #259

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:56 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:42 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:29 pm
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:59 pm
Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:01 am The OT and NT speak of these things, not linearly though, a bit here a bit there, I does seem too that if we - all of us on earth today - were given eternal life as God has, then chaos would ensue, we simply have not gained the wisdom.
I guess the millions of young children who died from the numerous God-given diseases they were blessed with had gained enough wisdom to cope with eternal life. And they are just the tip of the iceberg.
I have no real idea what you're actually trying to say here.
Did I use words that you need to have defined for you?
Why the hostility? wasn't your original question actually sarcasm because it reads like it was which is why I sought clarification.
No, you clearly did not seek clarification. You just bluntly stated that you had no real idea of what I was trying to say. By describing it as sarcasm you are admitting to having an idea of what I was trying to say. My impression is that you have once again made a claim that you are unable to support when pressed on the matter.
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Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

Post #260

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:56 pm I was not avoiding anything, but will be doing so now. I'm done with the hostility from many here, as if I am your enemy, as if I've done you harm, I hope you enjoy the blessings of atheism.
I'm sorry, but it is painfully obvious to me that you tend to avoid responding to issues when you have found yourself on the back foot. If you regard expectations that you support your claims or respond in good faith as hostility, then that is something we have no control over. As for the blessings of atheism, I am enjoying them very much, thank you.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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