DISPENSATIONALISM IS AN UNBIBLICAL DOCTRINE

[Eddie Ramos]

Dispensationalism is a word which describes that God had a different plan of salvation for the people on the Old Testament side of the cross than he did for the people on the New Testament side of the cross. For example it is believed by many that from the time of the fall of Adam and Eve, that people were saved by their good works (obedience to God's law, the Bible), then after the cross, obedience to the law of God was no longer necessary for salvation. That is, after the cross, one only had to believe in Jesus in order to be saved.

To demonstrate this doctrine, I copied and pasted a comment in a thread I found in this forum which said, "Good works earned one salvation under the Old Testament. That is, if a person never violated any of God's laws, he or she gained eternal life..... Under the New Testament, man came under grace and not the demands of the law.".

I will debate the side that states that there was only ever one way for God's elect to become saved throughout the history of the world. It was always by grace through the faith of Christ. As my opening support, I would like to put forth this passage:

Genesis 6:6–9 (KJV 1900)
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Here we are told that the whole world was corrupt, yet Noah found grace in God's eyes. The word grace is the word "favor". Noah found favor in God's eyes. Noah did not find grace because of his good works, else grace is no more grace (Rom 11:6). God describing Noah as just and perfect, isn't describing what Noah had earned as a result of his good works, because the Old Testament clearly tells us that:

....there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Ecclesiastes 7:20 (KJV 1900)

AND,

If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; 1 Kings 8:46 (KJV 1900)

So, when God describes someone as being perfect and just, it's because God is looking at the heart (1 Sam 16:7). A perfect heart which could only come as a result of having been saved by God's grace. This is why good works could never have earned anyone salvation before the cross. Else not a single person could have become saved prior to the cross because all have sinned.

Psalm 14:2–3 (KJV 1900)
2  The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3  They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
There is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The initial question for this debate is, what are the biblical texts used to support the doctrine of dispensationalism?

[Tcg]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

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[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

Moderator Clarification

Topics created in any of our debate subforums need to include a question for debate. Please add one or this topic will be moved to an appropriate discussion subforum.

Rules



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Moderator clarifications do not count as a strike against any posters. They serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received and/or are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels a clarification of the rules is required.

I edited my OP to include the required question. Thanks for the heads up.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

I don't know that I can provide any verses that support dispensationalism, but your topic brings up a subject I have been pondering recently. I've seen some claims that state that under the Old Covenant folks attained eternal life by obeying the law. This is contradicted by what Paul states in Romans 4 where he quotes from Genesis 15:

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Abraham was credited as righteous because of his belief, not by obeying the law.

The question I have for you is about your statement that, "It was always by grace through the faith of Christ." The passage from Romans 4 doesn't mention Christ at all. The object of Abraham's faith (if that is the right way to describe it) was God. Based on this, what do you mean by, "the faith of Christ?"


Tcg

[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

I don't know that I can provide any verses that support dispensationalism, but your topic brings up a subject I have been pondering recently. I've seen some claims that state that under the Old Covenant folks attained eternal life by obeying the law. This is contradicted by what Paul states in Romans 4 where he quotes from Genesis 15:

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Abraham was credited as righteous because of his belief, not by obeying the law.

The question I have for you is about your statement that, "It was always by grace through the faith of Christ." The passage from Romans 4 doesn't mention Christ at all. The object of Abraham's faith (if that is the right way to describe it) was God. Based on this, what do you mean by, "the faith of Christ?"


Tcg

Thanks for the reply. You're right, works of righteousness, which are works done in obedience to any of God's commandments, never justified anyone on either side of the cross. Well, it's interesting that the New Testament talks about Abraham and about his justification. Just as the example you put forth in Romans 4:3 where it says, Abraham believed God. Well, the rest of Romans 4 continues to talk about Abraham and then at the end of the chapter, it also applies the same to those on the New Testament side of the cross.

Romans 4:23–25 (KJV 1900)
Now it was not written for his (Abraham's) sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


If you notice, here we're being told that we need to believe in the one who raise Jesus from the dead. And that, of course is God. The same God who Abraham believed in. But as we compare scripture with scripture, we discover that if we believe in God, then we also believe in Christ, because they are one and the same.

John 14:1 (KJV 1900)
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

The key here is not whether Christ was not mentioned in Romans 4 as the one whom Abraham believed in, but rather that he believed. This means that if we believe in God or Jesus, we are believing in the same "person" if you will. Well, when we study this word "believed" which was ascribed to Abraham, we see that this same Greek word is also used here:

1 John 3:23 (KJV 1900)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Since the Bible established that any work of righteousness could never save anyone, then we can be sure that neither does choosing to believe (put one's faith) on God/Christ because if we did, then we would be obeying a commandment which could no more save us than if we obeyed the commandment to love one another. This is where the faith OF Christ comes in. Because believing is a work according to the Bible, yet faith is what saves, the Bible differentiates our faith, which comes after we are born again, because true faith is a fruit (or a result of having) the Spirit of God within us. It differentiates our faith from Christ's faith, which was his obedience to lay down his life for those he came to save. The Bible puts it this way:

Romans 3:22 (KJV 1900)
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 (KJV 1900)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:22 (KJV 1900)
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Philippians 3:9 (KJV 1900)
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

And so on. What the modern translations have done is they have changed each verse that speaks about the saving faith "OF" Christ to faith "IN" Christ, making the faith that saves their own. But the Bible as a whole will not allow that since faith is a work because faith without works is dead and it can never save, therefore the only faith that could have ever saved, was the faith of Christ together with his work of atonement. This is why the book of James is so misunderstood.

James 2:14 (KJV 1900)
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

The biblical answer is, no.

James 2:17 (KJV 1900)
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


As we'll see in a bit, the above truth about faith and works always applied. In the next verse, we're going to read about "a man" who is asking another person about their faith without works, which as we just got doe reading, is worthless unto salvation because it is dead faith. Well, this "man" is the man Christ Jesus, as he is the only man who could say, I will shew thee my faith by my works". This again, is in reference to salvation because the very next verse continues to address believing in God, but to what avail? For even the devils believe and it does them no good.

James 2:18–20 (KJV 1900)
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Then God begins to give examples of what he was just saying. And because people can only understand that it was their own faith which saved them, this next part really adds even more to their confusion.

James 2:21–24 (KJV 1900)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Doesn't this totally contradict that we are not justified by works? Yes it does. But God is not specifying here by whose works Abraham was justified. The way this passage is written, it is assumed that because Abraham is in view, that it must be Abraham's work which justified him. But it doesn't say that Abraham was justified FOR offering up his son (doing a work of obedience). It says that Abraham was justified when (at the time) he offered up his son. And the answer is yes, when Abraham offered up his son, he was justified by works, but not by his own works, but by the works of Jesus Christ in making payment for sins.

John 4:34 (KJV 1900)
34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 5:36 (KJV 1900)
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV 1900)
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Now we can better understand James 2 when it says, "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ". This is speaking about Christ, not Abraham. It was the works of Christ that allowed Abraham to be justified at the time he offered up his son and not for offering up his son.

Sorry for the lengthy reply.

[myth-one.com]

Dispensationalism is a word which describes that God had a different plan of salvation for the people on the Old Testament side of the cross than he did for the people on the New Testament side of the cross. For example it is believed by many that from the time of the fall of Adam and Eve, that people were saved by their good works (obedience to God's law, the Bible), then after the cross, obedience to the law of God was no longer necessary for salvation. That is, after the cross, one only had to believe in Jesus in order to be saved.

To demonstrate this doctrine, I copied and pasted a comment in a thread I found in this forum which said, "Good works earned one salvation under the Old Testament. That is, if a person never violated any of God's laws, he or she gained eternal life..... Under the New Testament, man came under grace and not the demands of the law.".

I will debate the side that states that there was only ever one way for God's elect to become saved throughout the history of the world. It was always by grace through the faith of Christ.

Wow! Big word -- Dispensationalism.

Actually, we are saved by the grace of God through Jesus Christ.

The man Jesus Christ did not exist until He was born about 2022 years ago.

But anyways, no one could be saved by believing in Jesus Christ until Jesus Christ was born, lived a sinless life, and died on the cross.

By doing so, Jesus became the only person to qualify for everlasting life under the original covenant between God and man.

He then put up His inheritance of everlasting life as a gift to those who accept Him as their Savior under the New Testament Covenant.

The wages of sin will always be death. But death is meaningless to those who possess everlasting life:

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

So, yes, the only path to salvation prior to Jesus' death on the cross was to never sin. Only one person accomplished that feat -- Jesus Christ.

And yes, after the death of Jesus, sin no longer affects our salvation. All who believe in Christ will be saved -- and all will be and can continue to be sinners.

You can call it whatever you want to.

The BIG word "Dispensationalism" does give it that complicated, mysterious, misunderstood by the masses
connotations. Probably, only those highly educated with doctoral degrees should even attempt to interpret Dispensationalism!

[Eddie Ramos]

Thanks for your reply. I see you made many doctrinal statements but provided only 1 verse to support one of your doctrines. While it would be helpful to see where in the Bible you're getting your doctrines from, I will reply based just on what you have said and we can go from there.

Actually, we are saved by the grace of God through Jesus Christ.

Yes, that is what the Bible teaches and this was true from day 1. For example, was Noah saved by grace? The Bible says yes.

1 Peter 3:20 (KJV 1900)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Genesis 6:8–9 (KJV 1900)
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Being saved by water is salvation indeed as water represents the gospel. Also, doesn't Genesis 6:9 say that Noah was just (meaning righteous) and perfect. But I thought you said that only Christ was sinless? How did Noah then find grace in a period in which you say it had to be earned by living a sinless life. If someone finds grace in God's eyes, then it is not of works, else grace is no more grace (Rom 11:6).

The man Jesus Christ did not exist until He was born about 2022 years ago.

Let's see if the Bible agrees.

John 8:58 (KJV 1900)
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

John 1:1–4 (KJV 1900)
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:14 (KJV 1900)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV 1900)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Colossians 1:18 (KJV 1900)
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you don't acknowledge that Jesus Christ is eternal God in the flesh. It was Jesus Christ who created the world. Jesus Christ was before Abraham was because he is I AM (Eternal God). And Jesus Christ was the first to rise from the dead, meaning he was the first to die. But how can that be since you said that the man Jesus Christ didn't exist until 2022 years ago? Well he did. He always did because he is Eternal God.

Daniel 3:25 (KJV 1900)
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Matthew 18:20 (KJV 1900)
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Christ was the first to rise from the dead because he, as the lamb of God, died from the foundation of the world and then rose from the dead to be declared the Son of God.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Romans 1:3–4 (KJV 1900)
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

How else can you explain the fact that during his earthly ministry, Jesus was already called the Son of God before he died on the cross and resurrected? So, the Bible confirms his existence as a man and as God, before the world even began. Whose image and likeness do you think we were made from? Christ's of course.

But anyways, no one could be saved by believing in Jesus Christ until Jesus Christ was born, lived a sinless life, and died on the cross.

When did Jesus then become sin according to your doctrine?
2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV 1900)
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:24 (KJV 1900)
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 Corinthians 15:3 (KJV 1900)
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Christ died for our sins by becoming sin and bearing our sin. Else he had no reason to die. But to fulfill the demands of the law (Rom 6:23) he who was sinless, had to first become sin in order for God to pour out his wrath upon Christ, as he does with all unsaved sinners.
As a result, Christ's soul was in hell for a time, that is, under the wrath of God.

Psalm 16:10 (KJV 1900)
10  For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31 (KJV 1900)
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

By doing so, Jesus became the only person to qualify for everlasting life under the original covenant between God and man.

Please comment on Noah, as I asked above. And also Job who was also perfect and upright and eschewed evil. How could these men be perfect? Or is God describing something other than the life in the flesh? If so, then what or who made them perfect and righteous? Their prefect sinless life in the flesh? The Bible says no.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (KJV 1900)
For there is not a just (righteous) man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

This means that the cause of their perfection and righteousness came from something else. Actually, it came from some one else, it came from Christ who was slain from the foundation of the world. Making the necessary payment that the law of God required and providing salvation from the very beginning.

He then put up His inheritance of everlasting life as a gift to those who accept Him as their Savior under the New Testament Covenant.

I've never read a verse that says that we have to "accept Christ as Savior". Perhaps you can post it. But I have read that God has made us accepted through Christ.

Ephesians 1:6 (KJV 1900)
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The wages of sin will always be death. But death is meaningless to those who possess everlasting life:

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

True.
John 8:51 (KJV 1900)
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

So, yes, the only path to salvation prior to Jesus' death on the cross was to never sin. Only one person accomplished that feat -- Jesus Christ.

I believe I covered this above. Butt the Bible shows that you are incorrect. Else not one single person would have been righteous and perfect and in heaven with God upon death. But there were.

Genesis 5:24 (KJV 1900)
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

2 Kings 2:1 (KJV 1900)
And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

Job 1:6 (KJV 1900)
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

And yes, after the death of Jesus, sin no longer affects our salvation. All who believe in Christ will be saved -- and all will be and can continue to be sinners.

[/quote]

There is much more to believing in Christ that what many understand, but the Bible (as a whole) teaches that not all who believe in Christ will be saved. Only those who believe with a whole heart, meaning that God has given them a new heart first so they can then obey God commandments, like "believe" in Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:10 (KJV 1900)
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ezekiel 36:26–27 (KJV 1900)
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I realize this is a lot of information, so you can pick whatever you want to respond to and we can go from there.

[myth-one.com]

There is much more to believing in Christ that what many understand, but the Bible (as a whole) teaches that not all who believe in Christ will be saved.

Well, the exact words used are "whosoever believeth":

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Why doesn't "whosoever believeth" include everyone who believeth?

[Eddie Ramos]

There is much more to believing in Christ that what many understand, but the Bible (as a whole) teaches that not all who believe in Christ will be saved.

Well, the exact words used are "whosoever believeth":

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Why doesn't "whosoever believeth" include everyone who believeth?

That's the problem with taking the Bible at face value as you're doing. You're focusing on one verse and are pretty convinced that God has led you to truth by taking it at face value. But that is not how God teaches. And why doesn't "whosoever believeth " include everyone who believes? Because the whole of the scriptures will not allow it. Let me show you.

Acts 8:12-13 (KJV)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Here we see that Simon did exactly what you think John 3:16 is saying, he believed and was baptized. But that didn't change his spiritual condition as we'll read next.

Acts 8:20-23 (KJV)
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Simon was still unsaved, even though he believed. How is that possible?

Here's another example. Here we see Jesus speaking to the Jews and then we read:

John 8:30 (KJV)
As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Now, according to the way you're understanding John 3:16, these Jews must have become saved and received eternal life. But wait, let's see what the Bible has to say next.

John 8:30-32 (KJV)
As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

So, now Jesus is directly addressing those Jews which believed on him. But these are the same Jews that want to kill Christ.

[i]John 8:33-37 (KJV)
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.[/i]

That's harsh language to use on people who have believed and supposedly given everlasting life. Except they weren't given everlasting life because even though they believed on Jesus Christ (as the scriptures said), their spiritual condition never changed. Let’s see what else Jesus says to those Jews which believed on him.

John 8:44 (KJV)
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So, comparing scripture with scripture (spiritual with spiritual) teaches us that there is far more to "believing" than what people think John 3:16 is plainly stating. And the key to "whosoever believeth", the way the Bible defines it, has to do with those who have been given a whole heart to believe in the way that pleases God.

In other words, God first replaces the wicked and stony heart with a whole heart (meaning salvation came first), and then that individual can obey God's command to believe.

[myth-one.com]

In other words, God first replaces the wicked and stony heart with a whole heart (meaning salvation came first), and then that individual can obey God's command to believe.

Whether or not someone believes something is a choice -- not a command. We choose to believe, not to believe, or we can choose to make no choice I suppose.

Everlasting life or everlasting death are the two choices. God recommends choosing life, but will honor either choice:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

We are not commanded to believe.