Christian nationalism

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Realworldjack
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Christian nationalism

Post #1

Post by Realworldjack »

I want to start out here by saying that I have been on this site for a good number of years now, as a regular contributor. However, it has been a good number of months since I have participated here on this site. The reason for this is the fact that I became convinced that I needed to begin to focus my attention, in order to debate fellow Christians. With this being said, I would like to share my response concerning a blog of a fellow Christian, who is a pastor of a large Church who has a large following which I have just submitted. I do not intend to identify who this pastor is. Rather, I would simply like to share my response to this particular pastor in order to receive feedback from both Christians, and all others as well, concerning my response. My main focus here is, what should unite all of us as, Americans. With this being the case, please pay special attention to the last three paragraphs. It is my hope that all of us as Americans can find a way to be united together, in spite of some differences we may have.

Below is my response to this pastor,
realworldjack" wrote:There are a number of issues I would like to discuss, debate, and challenge, in this, and other posts, as far as your stance concerning such things as Christian reconstruction, theonomy, theocracy, and Christian Nationalism. However, this would be long and drawn out, and would require a lot of time, energy, and space, which would cause the conversation to become bogged down. Therefore, with that in mind I want to attempt to tackle a couple of issues, in order for the issues to be fully addressed.

In your post entitled, "Free Speech in a Christian Theocracy" you refer to Paul giving us,

"explicit and free permission to keep company with idolators who would worship Aphrodite by fornicating with prostitutes at her temple."

You are correct, and I would argue this also gives us permission to associate with the Muslim, Jew, homosexual, abortionists, etc. of our day. You go on to say, we are not given this permission, "because we are now instructed to make our peace with such idolatry—far from it." Rather, according to you,

"Our mission remains the same, which is to bring every thought captive."

Here I would have to assume you are referring to the passage in 2 Corinthians chapter 10, and you must be, because just a few sentences later you actually quote this passage. You go on to tell us, our mission as the Church "is the eradication of idolatry in the entire world." Since this is a huge endeavor you ask, how are we to accomplish such a task, and refer us to the passage mentioned above, as if this passage is explaining to us as Christians, these mighty weapons we have at our disposal, and commanding us as Christians to, "take every thought captive" and by being commanded by Paul to "take every thought captive" this would include our interaction with those outside the Church.

Okay, well let us take a look at this passage in order to determine if this is what Paul was attempting to communicate to the Corinthians? If this is not in the least the message Paul was attempting to convey to the Corinthians, then there is no way we can use the passage in order to claim we as Christians are commanded to, "take every thought captive."

So then, as we turn our attention to this passage, and begin in verse 1 of chapter 10 in 2 Corinthians, what we read there is,

"Now I, Paul, appeal to you personally by the meekness and gentleness of Christ "

So, as we can clearly see, Paul is making a plea to the Corinthians. What is the plea Paul is making? Let us continue in order to discover this. Paul continues,

"I who am meek when present among you, but am full of courage toward you when away!"

What does Paul mean here? Well, as we continue on, we will discover Paul knows there are some of the Corinthians who are questioning his authority, by claiming Paul was meek in his presence, but when Paul was away he would write these bold, and weighty letters. This was Paul's way of letting these folks know that he was fully aware of what was being said about him. Therefore, Paul goes on to say,

"now I ask that when I am present I may not have to be bold with the confidence that (I expect) I will dare to use against some who consider us to be behaving according to human standards."

Now, I do not care who you are, this is clearly a warning, and it is a warning to some in the Corinthian Church, and the Corinthians would have clearly understood it as a warning. Paul continues,

"For though we live as human beings, we do not wage war according to human standards"

Okay, who is the "WE" referring too? I can assure you the "WE" is in no way referring to the Corinthians. Rather, this is a warning to the Corinthians. Paul is warning the Corinthians, "although I myself, and Timothy (Since Paul and Timothy are identified as the authors of this letter) are indeed human, we do not wage war according to human standards". Therefore, this has nothing whatsoever to do with communicating to the Corinthians that they as Christians, "do not wage war according to human standards". Nor is Paul explaining to the Corinthians they have these Spiritual weapons at their disposal. Again, it is a clear warning to the Corinthians.

As we continue Paul says,

"for the weapons of our warfare are not human weapons, but are made powerful by God for tearing down strongholds."

The question here is, who is the "OUR" referring too? It cannot be the Corinthians, since they are not included in the "WE". In other words, this has nothing to do with teaching the Corinthians they as Christians possess these powerful Spiritual weapons.

The problem we have here is, this passage has nothing whatsoever to do with Paul teaching the Corinthians they had these powerful weapons at their disposal, and it certainly had nothing at all to do with commanding the Corinthians to, "take every thought captive" and this is very easily demonstrated by a simple reading of the text. The Corintians would have clearly understood it as a warning, and the Corinthians could not have possibly understood it any other way. If I am correct, (and I clearly am) then this passage cannot be in any way used as a command to Christians to, "take every thought captive" since it was not a command to the Corinthians.

Paul continues,

"We tear down arguments and every arrogant obstacle that is raised up against the knowledge of God"

And this brings us to the very phrase we are dealing with,

"and we take every thought captive to make it obey Christ."

So again, who is the "WE" in this passage referring too? Does it include the Corinthians? Or, is this a warning to the Corinthians? Well, it becomes extremely clear in the very next sentence.

"We are also ready to punish every act of disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete."

It is absolutely clear here! The Corinthians are not included in the "WE", therefore we cannot include us as Christians in with the "WE". Rather, the Corinthians are identified with the "YOUR" making it abundantly clear this is a warning to the Corinthians and is therefore not in any way a command to the Corinthians, nor us as Christians to "take every thought captive". This has nothing to do with Paul's train of thought, and the Corinthians could have never come away with such an idea. However, it continues on, making it even more evident. In verse 7 Paul writes,

"You are looking at outward appearances."

Who is the "YOU" referring too? Clearly it is the Corinthians, and since this is indeed the case the Corinthians were in no way included when Paul said, "we take every thought captive". The fact of the matter is, it was not a command to the Corinthians to, "take every thought captive." Rather, it was a statement of fact that Paul and Timothy had the authority, and power to come into the Corinthian Church and "take every thought captive".

The fact this whole passage was not in any way a command to the Corinthians, but rather a warning is demonstrated clearly in verses 10, and 11 where Paul says,

"because some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but his physical presence is weak and his speech is of no account.” Let such a person consider this: What we say by letters when we are absent, we also are in actions when we are present."

How in the world anyone can read this passage and come away with the idea this is a command to Christians to, "take every thought captive" is beyond my ability to understand? What is even more baffling is how one can come to the conclusion this would have anything to do with us as Christians engaging those outside the Church, when it is clear Paul is dealing with those inside the Church, and had only those inside the Church in mind as he wrote? In other words, in order for one to claim Paul was talking about anyone outside the Church in this passage, one would have to force in a meaning which clearly is not on the mind of Paul. And this brings us to the next issue concerning a passage we have already brought forth, which is the passage in which you tell us, Paul gives us,

"explicit and free permission to keep company with idolators who would worship Aphrodite by fornicating with prostitutes at her temple."


Again, you would be correct. However, giving us as Christians this permission was not at all the intent of what Paul was attempting to communicate. In other words, it was not Paul's intent in this passage to give the Corinthians this permission. This was not at all on his mind. Rather, what was on the mind of Paul as he wrote this passage was, gross immorality inside the very Church he is now addressing. Therefore, Paul refers to the former letter and says,

"I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. In no way did I mean the immoral people of this world"

Paul goes on to say,

"But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who calls himself a Christian who is sexually immoral, or greedy, or an idolator, or verbally abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person."

So then, as we can clearly see, Paul's whole mindset, and focus here is to deal with this immorality inside this very Church. It had nothing whatsoever to do with giving the Corinthians, and us as Christians "explicit and free permission to keep company with idolators", even though as you say we can certainly draw this from what was said. And yet, you have Paul using this permission as some sort of, "strategy of attack." Not only is this nowhere in the text, but one also cannot even draw this conclusion from what is said, in the same way one could naturally draw the conclusion we as Christians are free to associate with immoral unbelievers. There is no way anyone can draw such a conclusion. Rather, it has to be inserted.

The problem with attempting to insert this idea that Paul was allowing us to associate with immoral unbelievers as some sort of "strategy of attack" against their idolatry is the fact that Paul actually gives us the reason we can associate with the immoral unbeliever, as opposed to the immoral believer, and that is the fact that Paul says, "For what do I have to do with judging those outside?" So then, you have Paul giving us the permission to associate with immoral unbelievers as some sort of "strategy of attack", while Paul says it is because we have no business judging those outside the Church. Therefore, it seems to me you are interpreting these passages any way you wish in order to support a certain agenda, while ignoring the plain and simple meaning Paul had as he wrote these passages.

With all the above being said, allow me to address the divisions we now have in these United States. Your answer seems to be, Christian reconstruction, theonomy, theocracy, or Christian nationalism. It really does not matter what you call it, the idea is the same. In other words, your answer seems to be we need to, and MUST, infuse God's moral law into our civil law. While it would be great if all of us as Americans were united in our theology, I am afraid this is not the case. I am also afraid it has never been promised to us this would be the case, which is exactly why Paul can tell us we can associate with the immoral of the world, otherwise we would have to leave the world. This seems to make it perfectly clear that Paul did not envision a time when there would be no immoral unbelievers in the world.

What unites us as Christians here in the U.S. in our Churches is Jesus Christ, and the Gospel. What unites Muslims in the U.S. in their Mosques, is Mohammad, and the Koran. What unites Jews in the U.S. in their synagogues, is the Torah. What unites homosexuals in the U.S. is their belief the lifestyle they lead is perfectly normal. What unites atheists is..........? Well, I am not sure the atheists even care to be united. The point is, all these groups have different things which unites them together. The problem is, all of us as Americans need to find what it is which unites us as Americans, no matter our religion, lack thereof, sexual orientation, etc. What it is which should unite all these groups together as Americans is, FREEDOM!

You see, as a Christian here in the United States, I have the freedom to freely express that I am convinced Islam is a false religion, and that Christianity is the Only One True Faith. I am free to proclaim homosexuality as a sin. I am also free to spread the Gospel to all those who are willing to listen. In other words, all of us as Americans, have the freedom to have a rigorous robust debate, exchange of ideas, and beliefs, but at the end of the day we can all embrace each other, being thankful for the freedoms we have to disagree, and still be united in some way. You would think we as Christians would be leading the way in this area. However, it seems as if we as Christians are actually leading the way in causing more division. One way or the other we better figure this out before it is too late. Or we can continue to insist that all must, and have to be united based upon our theology as Christians, and see where that will lead? I can tell you this, I am convinced this country is heading for a complete collapse, and it is not the homosexuals, abortionists, atheists, nor the left which will be the cause. Rather, it will be, Christian nationalism, and or, Christian reconstruction. But hey! As a postmillennialist a complete collapse of our society would be the aim. Correct?

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Re: Christian nationalism

Post #91

Post by Realworldjack »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #88]

WOW! I am certainly glad you got that off your chest.
Trump is a profound and inveterate liar.
And so is Bill, and Hilary Clinton, Biden, Nancy Pelosi, etc. etc. If you think otherwise, you are simply demonstrating exactly what you have said yourself, which is there are those who are so in love with what they would rather believe, they no longer care about the truth. At this point, you are only left with whomever you believe to be the worst liar, and I am not really seeing how that would matter much.

One of the things I really hate, (and I have spoken out about this to these very folks) is to hear Christians talk about how it would be impossible for one to be a Christian, and vote for this, or that candidate. I have no impressions that God has a particular candidate, or political party in mind, and if I fail to vote for that particular candidate, or party, then I am somehow out of His will. Therefore, when, and if a Christian tells me they voted for Hilary, or Biden, I am not thinking these folks must be evil. Rather, I simply come to the conclusion they have political opinions, which I do not share. With that being the case, I certainly do not look at those outside the Church and assume if they do not share my political opinion then they must, and have to be driven by all sorts of evil.

However, here you are not even a Christian, telling me that it is impossible to be a Christian, and vote for a particular candidate. Moreover, you certainly seem to be on the verge of classifying me as being evil. You see, this is the exact problem I am talking about, and why I am becoming ever more convinced we are doomed for a complete collapse. I am not at all hating on you, or anyone else because of the political choices they make. But, if I happen to disagree with you politically then there is all this hate, and what we end up with is, both sides simply attempting to cancel the other out. I mean let's look at what you have to say,
If one cannot see that, no argument, no amount of facts will change the mind.
It certainly seems to me you have a lot of hate built up for this man, and you are passing that hate on to me as well, I am not hating on you because of who you vote for. So then, is it possible that "no amount of argument, no amount of facts", could ever penetrate the amount of hate you have?

But listen. I am not concerned about who you vote for, and I am really not interested in having a political debate. But the thing is, I believe we have just demonstrated why we are more than likely doomed. We are doomed, because no one is listening to each other attempting to really understand another point of view. Rather, like you, and many Christians I know, who already have the other side figured out, and the other side is not simply in error, but are rather, haters of the truth, Nazis, hates immigrants, Christian nationalists, white supremist, or what other label one decides to pin on the other in an attempt to cancel them out.

What folks need to understand is this Christian nationalist business has been in the work for decades. They now believe their time has come, believe they are prepared, and they mean business, and they are doing a really good job. As an example, folks like Marjorie Taylor Greene, is not really a Christian nationalist in my opinion. I really do not think she even knows what all that would entail. She is simply a Christian who loves her country, and thinks this is all there is to Christian nationalism. The thing is though there are many folks like her, and the Christian nationalists are dragging them in, and before they realize what is actually going on, it will be too late.

In the meantime, the Christian nationalist are full steam ahead, and they fully know that the Christians who are oppose to Christian nationalism, will never be able to go it alone, and also will not be able to unite with those who are not Christians, as you are clearly demonstrating. I mean, look at it right here. We have 3 of us, and we cannot unite in order to agree upon something that is a threat. I am a Christian who would love to unite, leaving religion, and politics aside, and we have JW who cannot set JW aside in order to stand up to the threat, and it seems as if you and I cannot unite, because you cannot get over who I voted for in the last election. It is not that I cannot get over who you voted for in the last election. What I cannot get over is the idea that you seem to be under the impression the other choice we had was somehow a moral choice. If this wasn't so sad it would be hilarious. I am a Christian who is not claiming to have made the moral choice, and all those who voted the other way made an immoral choice, but this is exactly what you are saying, as if you are the authority on morality. I mean, GOOD GREIF! You cannot make this stuff up.

Well, I am telling you the Christian nationalist are loving every minute of it, because they hold to the belief that there is going to be a complete collapse, and it will be Christians who will reconstruct our society, hence the term, "Christian reconstruction". My friend, you may not be united with the Christian nationalist, but you are certainly helping their cause.

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Re: Christian nationalism

Post #92

Post by Diogenes »

Realworldjack wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:34 am [Replying to Diogenes in post #88]

WOW! I am certainly glad you got that off your chest.
Trump is a profound and inveterate liar.
And so is Bill, and Hilary Clinton, Biden, Nancy Pelosi, etc. etc.
There is literally no comparison. When Trump opens his mouth a lie emerges. When he insults others he is projecting his guilty knowledge about himself.
Everyone lies. Even Abraham Lincoln. Comparing Trump to other politicians is like comparing a shark to a goldfish.
Trump’s false or misleading claims total 30,573 over 4 years
... averaging about 21 erroneous claims a day.
What is especially striking is how the tsunami of untruths kept rising the longer he served as president and became increasingly unmoored from the truth.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... our-years/
What is striking about these lies, in contrast to the lies of previous presidents, is that they have generally been told in the absence of a particular and acute threat to either the president’s power or to the preservation of the United States.
https://theconversation.com/from-washin ... ons-145995
He lied to lead an insurrection against the United States of America and continues to lie about the 'stolen' election he lost.
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Re: Christian nationalism

Post #93

Post by Diogenes »

Realworldjack wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:34 am However, here you are not even a Christian, telling me that it is impossible to be a Christian, and vote for a particular candidate. Moreover, you certainly seem to be on the verge of classifying me as being evil.
Not at all. I am actually very proud of you for being able to go against the current sweeping up so many who claim the title 'Christian.' I don't mean to be patronizing, but you are one of the few who have the courage and principles to go against the tide of Christian Nationalism. You may have a blind spot about Trump, but that does not invalidate the many things you write that are on the mark about opposing this danger. Despite for example, your misunderstanding of Medusa Taylor Greene who is a dishonest, raving lunatic and as far from being a Christian as members of the Spanish Inquisition, you are taking a principled stand. Yes, I think Trump is evil, but there are many good people who have been caught up in his . . . .

Neither you nor I should refrain from being critical of the misuse of Christianity despite the fact our criticism may fuel their motivation. It is the tribal nature of 'Christian' culture I rail against, not the words of Jesus. Jesus recognized this anti tribalism when he befriended the Canaanite woman and offered the parable of the Good Samaritan; comforted the thief on the cross and consorted with the 'lower classes' the Pharisees condemned.

Where we can unite is on the basic principles Jesus taught and oppose Christian Nationalism.
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Re: Christian nationalism

Post #94

Post by Realworldjack »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #92]
There is literally no comparison.
You are correct concerning there being no comparison, because once one establishes they are a continual liar, then comparing this continual liar to another is really a waste of time because at the end of the day, you have a couple of liars. You simply continue to demonstrate one who as you say, is in love with what they would rather believe, they have lost sight of actually seeking that which is true.
When Trump opens his mouth a lie emerges.
Here is another fine example. A complete an utter exaggeration which is not helping your case in the least. Actually, you are damaging your case, and demonstrating you are willing to get down on the same level of those you criticize. I would certainly not argue that Trump is not a liar, but to suggest that when he "opens his mouth a lie emerges" demonstrates one who is not in touch with reality. Moreover, when you state such nonsense, folks will immediately ignore anything else you have to say, since you have already established yourself as one who has no credibility. Also, such statements go on to demonstrate one who is not willing to even listen to the other side, and gives the impression that such a one does not care at all about the facts, or the truth, or that you have the attitude the facts, and truth is on your side, with no possibility of error. It is this sort of attitude on both sides which is killing us. In other words, if one does not agree with me, they are a liar from hell, racist, homophobe, bigot, evil, Nazi, etc. What is getting lost in all of this is, the actual truth. What I am becoming ever more convinced of, is the next thing which is about to be lost is our freedom. I have tried my best to stay away from politics, because I know we all need to be united, and politics is not what is going to unite us, and for some strange reason you cannot seem to help yourself, and I am beginning to wonder why?

Allow me to give you an example which may help you see more clearly. Two weeks ago, my wife, and I went on a small vacation with another couple. I have been knowing this couple most all of my life. In fact, I have actually known the husband all of my life, and we grew up together, and have been through many good times, along with times which have not been so good, being there for each other all the while, and have remained to be the closest of friends, even though we now live some 2 1/2 hours away from each other ever since he got married.

At any rate, on the last night we played games together, and when we were done, we began to sit and talk for a while before we retired for the evening. At one point in the conversation somehow the word "conspiracy" was mentioned, and as soon as I heard it, I attempted to keep the conversation from veering to politics, so I simply asked if they believed we really landed on the moon in order to keep things light. However, and eventually, the conversation turned to politics, and of course they begin to talk about how the election was stolen. I listened as long as I could, until I could take it no longer, just like with you. I simply began to ask what evidence they had to support such an idea, and before you know it the conversation became heated on their side, with my lifelong friend actually saying, "I think I am going to have to question our friendship" and he was not joking at that point. WHAT? GOOD GREIF! Actually, I paid no attention at all to the comment, and simply continued on, knowing he had just let his emotions get the best of him.

So, as you can see, I am getting it from all sides. It is like we are losing our sanity. Which brings me to my next point. I cannot imagine for the life of me, one claiming they voted for Hilary, or Biden based upon any sort of morality. Therefore, the most one could do is to say, they voted against Trump because of his immorality. However, what I am thinking is, morality really had nothing whatsoever to do with it in the least. Rather, like me, it was simply the fact that one tends to support the policies of one candidate, far more than they support the policies of the other, and the only thing morality may have to do with it is the policies, not at all the candidates. I mean, do you really want to tell me that the only reason you did not vote for Trump is because of his immorality, and the fact that you are under the impression that Hilary, and Biden are far less immoral than Trump? Or, is the fact of the matter that you would not have voted for Trump even if he were the most honest candidate of them all? It is simply insane what is going on.

With that being said, allow me to recommend a book to you which is actually entitled, "Recovering Our Sanity". I understand you are not a Christian, but the author is a Christian theologian, and although I have not received my copy yet, (and my wife sure better have already ordered it) I have read most of what he has authored, and I think you may be pleasantly surprised. He has spoken out against Christian nationalism, and I have been eager for him to say more, and I'm thinking that he may deal with the issue in this book.

I have no problem with you not being a Christian, and I am fine with whomever you vote for, along with the reasons for your vote. I am also fine with whatever you think about me, and who I voted for. It seems to be you who has the problem, and then you want to attempt to convince me, your problem all boils down to morality? The thing is, both sides are claiming morality, when I was thinking morality was subjective. If morality is objective, then by what standard are we measuring? Who among us has the monopoly on morality? It certainly is not me, which is exactly why I do not appeal to morality in order to justify myself. But hey, you all continue to argue over who is the most moral among you, the whole while the net is closing in around you, and before you know it, we all will be living under the morality of Christian nationalism

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Re: Christian nationalism

Post #95

Post by Diogenes »

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #94]
I've read enough of Michael Horton's book (the free sample on Amazon) to know I'm not interested. Fearing God is the problem, not the solution. I don't fear God because he does not exist. I do not fear death because I will simply cease to exist and be unaware of it. I like going to sleep and it will be nice to do it without dreams. ;) I don't fear public speaking either, having earned my living at it for 40 years. I'm afraid of sharks and spiders ... and stupid people.. :)

Fearing death and needing a 'god' to save me reminds me of the computer virus scam, where companies infect your computer, then sell you the cure.
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Re: Christian nationalism

Post #96

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Realworldjack wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:12 pm ... JWs apparently are tied to certain laws which prevent them from helping in this fight against Christian nationalism

DO JEHOVAHS WITNESSES FIGHT CHRISTIAN NATIONALISM?

Jehovahs Witnesses remain polifically neutral and do not join socio-political or military struggles. That said they are not indifferent to human suffering or inactive in this regard. Jehovah's Witnesses " fight against Christian nationalism" in that they combatting harmful ideologies by promoting and teaching bible truths that do not support extreme views. Indeed, when it comes to the fight against harmful ideologies of all types, Jehovahs Witnesses are leaders !







FURHER READING Why Do Jehovah's Witnesses Maintain Political Neutrality?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... eutrality/



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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Christian nationalism

Post #97

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Realworldjack wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:14 pm However, there are those of us in the "real world" who understand that even if JW has the answer to everything, because it is the solution to everything, it is not going to be the answer to this threat we face...
The real answer to this perceived threat (and all threats to human happiness) is not the organisation of Jehovah's Witnesses (nor any of the worlds political or social systems) but GODS KINGDOM.


As has been explained, Christian Nationalism poses no threat to the continued peace and spiritual prosperity of True Christians. If it poses a threat to their continued liberty, that is nothing new, as Christian freedom has been attacked by all sorts of authorities throughout the ages. Jesus encouraged his followers to endure such hardships if immediate relief was not possible.

Image

Ultimately it is God's Kingdom that Christians believe will provide lasting peace and security for all lovers of truth, and that kingdom takes full control Christians must continue their fight against harmful ideologies using the sword of Gods word the bible.






JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




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GOD'S KINGDOM, MILLENIAL RULE and ..POLITICAL NEUTRAITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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Realworldjack
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Re: Christian nationalism

Post #98

Post by Realworldjack »

Diogenes wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:24 pm
Realworldjack wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:34 am However, here you are not even a Christian, telling me that it is impossible to be a Christian, and vote for a particular candidate. Moreover, you certainly seem to be on the verge of classifying me as being evil.
Not at all. I am actually very proud of you for being able to go against the current sweeping up so many who claim the title 'Christian.' I don't mean to be patronizing, but you are one of the few who have the courage and principles to go against the tide of Christian Nationalism. You may have a blind spot about Trump, but that does not invalidate the many things you write that are on the mark about opposing this danger. Despite for example, your misunderstanding of Medusa Taylor Greene who is a dishonest, raving lunatic and as far from being a Christian as members of the Spanish Inquisition, you are taking a principled stand. Yes, I think Trump is evil, but there are many good people who have been caught up in his . . . .

Neither you nor I should refrain from being critical of the misuse of Christianity despite the fact our criticism may fuel their motivation. It is the tribal nature of 'Christian' culture I rail against, not the words of Jesus. Jesus recognized this anti tribalism when he befriended the Canaanite woman and offered the parable of the Good Samaritan; comforted the thief on the cross and consorted with the 'lower classes' the Pharisees condemned.

Where we can unite is on the basic principles Jesus taught and oppose Christian Nationalism.

Not at all.
Okay, well let us look at what you have actually said,
Trump is a profound and inveterate liar. I do not understand how anyone who holds the the principles that Jesus taught could vote for a man who is a liar,
So then, it certainly seems as if your whole argument against anyone voting for Trump is based upon morality? However, if I were to base my vote upon morality alone, who would have been left to vote for? Of course, you are going to suggest there is "no comparison", but that would be subjective. on top of the fact that I really do not see how that would even matter.
You may have a blind spot about Trump
I do not have a "blind spot about Trump". I also do not have a "blind spot" concerning Biden, or the Clintons. It seems the only difference between us is that I am not attempting to appeal to any sort of morality in order to defend whom I voted for. But again, I think if you were being honest, you would have to admit that even if Trump was the most honest candidate of them all, you would have still not voted for him, and if I am correct, this demonstrates it has nothing whatsoever to do with the morality of the candidates. Rather, like me, you support the policies of one candidate, as opposed to those of another candidate, and no amount of immorality on the part of the candidate which best supports your views, is going to sway your vote to the opposing candidate. My point is, I do not vote for Democrats, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the morality of the candidates. Rather, it has to do with the policies.
Despite for example, your misunderstanding of Medusa Taylor Greene who is a dishonest, raving lunatic and as far from being a Christian as members of the Spanish Inquisition,
You continue to demonstrate you are part of the problem. I mean, this is exactly what it is Trump does. I have to admit I do not know all that much about Greene, but I believe it would be safe to say she is far from being a "raving lunatic". As I said in the previous post, and I could be wrong, I really wonder if Greene knows exactly what all Christian nationalism entails. If she is under the impression that it simply means being a Christian, and loving your country, then she has very little knowledge about it. Christian nationalists are those who want to infuse God's moral law, spelled out in the Mosaic covenant, along with its penal code, into our civil law. If, and when Greene comes out and defends this idea, I will come to realize my error. However, as far as I have heard, she has only said to be a Christian, and love her country, and this is not Christian nationalism.
Where we can unite is on the basic principles Jesus taught and oppose Christian Nationalism.
We have already demonstrated we are not, and more than likely will not ever be united in our politics. What you say above demonstrates we are not united in what we believe concerning Christianity. I am not at all under the impression that we as Christians are to follow the teachings of Jesus, because even one of the Biblical writers tells us it would have been impossible to write all Jesus said and done. Therefore, we do not even have all that Jesus would have taught, so how in the world could we follow what we do not have? You see, this is what religion gives you. Religion, gives you a list of things to do, it is about rules, and laws, and the chase after morality. On the other hand, Christianity is a faith, and we are to put faith in the work of another. One who has given up on the chase after morality, can look to help those who may be in need, not concerning themselves with the list of rules, and laws tied to morality.

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Re: Christian nationalism

Post #99

Post by Realworldjack »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:39 pm [Replying to Realworldjack in post #94]
I've read enough of Michael Horton's book (the free sample on Amazon) to know I'm not interested. Fearing God is the problem, not the solution. I don't fear God because he does not exist. I do not fear death because I will simply cease to exist and be unaware of it. I like going to sleep and it will be nice to do it without dreams. ;) I don't fear public speaking either, having earned my living at it for 40 years. I'm afraid of sharks and spiders ... and stupid people.. :)

Fearing death and needing a 'god' to save me reminds me of the computer virus scam, where companies infect your computer, then sell you the cure.
If you would have read carefully, you would have seen where I qualified this recommendation by saying, "I understand you are not a Christian". Now, why in the world would you think that I would have qualified in this way? Well, it would be because I would have understood there would be things like, "fearing God" which you would not have agreed with. What I think you need to understand is the fact that Horton is addressing Christians. In other words, his intended audience is those inside the Church, and he is scolding only those inside the Church, of being overly concerned with the behavior of those outside the Church. This is what I meant by, "you may be pleasantly surprised". Not that you would have agreed with him as far as the truth of Christianity, but the fact that he is scolding Christians for being overly concerned with the behavior of those who are not Christian and attempting to force our Christianity upon those outside.
Fearing death and needing a 'god' to save me reminds me of the computer virus scam, where companies infect your computer, then sell you the cure.


And here we go again. So then, all the many extremely intelligent Christians (not all of them mind you) down through the centuries who have been convinced of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ are simply a victim of a planted virus, and have been scammed? The thing is, when I look at the many, many folks, (including you) who are far more intelligent than I will ever be, who are convinced Christianity is somehow a scam, this causes me to pause, wonder, and dig in: in order to look for my own error. Those who have convinced themselves there is no possibility of their own error, have stop the learning process.

This is the problem we now face. Both sides are convinced they are not only on the correct side, but also on the side of morality, and the only thing left to do is to hurl insults out to those opposed and accuse them of being evil. This is exactly why I believe we are heading for a collapse. But hey! No worries, the Christian nationalists are predicting this collapse, and they already have the plan, and it is called, "Christian reconstruction".

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Re: Christian nationalism

Post #100

Post by Diogenes »

[Replying to Realworldjack in post #99]

I have no quarrel with people voting for Republicans or Democrats. I did not care for Nixon or 'W' Bush, but I understand voting for them. Neither Clinton nor Reagan were favorites of mine, tho' I understand they have their followers. But T***p is in a separate category. His Access Hollywood tape was one thing, but he actively incited an attempted insurrection of the United States. He's on notice that his words inspire violence, yet now (forgetting perhaps that he appointed Christopher Wray head of the FBI, he is inspiring his followers to vile acts and claims against those institutions that try to hold him accountable.
Dinesh D’Souza, a right-wing provocateur [and vocal 'Christian' and William Lane Craig associate] who received a pardon from Trump for campaign-finance violations, said, “The FBI, an organization set up to fight organized crime, has become the most powerful organized crime syndicate in the world. We now need to carry the fight against organized crime to its logical conclusion: Shut down the FBI and prosecute this gang of dangerous criminals.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/671104/

And now, predictably his words once again have inspired "defunding" and violence against our core institutions.

Defund Law Enforcement After Feds Raid Mar-a-Lago
Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene whined that defunding the Department of Justice would “completely cut out of their budget the ability to persecute Republicans”

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... i-1394486/
The reckless comments of religious and political leaders have consequences. All the details are not in yet, but this may be yet another example of how easy it is to rile up the MAGA base with violent results.

Man armed with AR-15 style rifle shoots into FBI Cincinnati building with a nail gun and flees leading to interstate standoff
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ar ... -rcna42669
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