Can you explain the doctrine of salvation better than the Bible?Bible does?

[amortalman]

In a fairly recent thread, POI posted a new topic and I present it here as a preface to an offshoot topic of my own:

Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #1
Post by POI » Thu May 05, 2022 12:20 pm

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven?

POI's follow-up post:

Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?
Post #2
Post by POI » Tue May 10, 2022 4:48 pm

I find it odd that no Christian wants to chime in here? How does a Christian get to Heaven?

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other

After POI's second post a number of debaters jumped in with their favorite scripture verse or verses as to how a Christian can get to heaven. However, it didn't settle the issue definitively. And that is indicative of one of the major problems with the Bible. It just isn't that clear. In fact, it can be downright confusing. I think Dan Barker (atheist, speaker, debater, writer, and former evangelical preacher) was right when he said: Can you think of any book more confusing than the Bible?

In my humble opinion, God could have headed off all this confusion on this issue and dozens of others we find in the "holy book" by making them crystal clear. Maybe this would have prevented the splintering of Christ's church into a thousand denominations. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.

So, here is the debate question and challenge: How might the important doctrine of salvation have been presented in the scripture in a clear and coherent way that left little doubt as to the real meaning?
I am not asking for your exegesis of the relevant passages. That has been done in POI's thread. I'm asking for ideas as to how the relevant passages might have been more clearly presented so that each one separately does not confuse the whole.

By simply taking the options POI presented (and I have taken the liberty to slightly modify), How does a Christian get to heaven? Is it by grace alone, faith alone, works alone, grace+faith, grace+works, faith+works, or another way?

I have my own thoughts on this but I will reserve them for later. I want to hear your ideas.

So, if it were up to you, how might you relieve the confusion over this teaching?

[William]

William: The Bible came through humans and was not dictated by any being as it was allowed to be presented as stories from hearsay about others claiming to be directly involved with the God.

As a result, we have a smorgasbord of stories which have passed through many different filters of individual beliefs and which sometimes lead to folk feeling it necessary to make threads such as this one, in which questions can be asked and answers might be given.
[Replying to amortalman in post #70]

I don't understand how you obviously could not have understood that the OP was written primarily to debunk what millions, if not billions, of Christians believe - that the bible was written by God. So, I have to wonder why you responded at all since you already believe that it was not written by God.

It may be true that some folk believe a God wrote the Bible, but not all folk [even Christians] think that this is the case. I am under the impression that most Christians believe it was inspired by the God, so I don't think what I had to say about it is any different from that view.

The subject is whether the doctrine of salvation could be explained any better than the bible explains it. I provided my opinion on that in an earlier post.
viewtopic.php?p=1086752#p1086752

[theophile]

I myself prefer the thrill of seeing Mother Earth as She truly is - some demonic-like entity who has been manifesting Her particular projections out into that which She is awakening to - slowly and surely... and in the process, I hope to witness therein a transformation of a demon-like entity into a god-like entity...and be a part of that rather than dressing it up n too much fluff that I distort things far too impractically.

I tend to agree we shouldn't dress it up or add too much fluff. But to be clear, I think the bible presents things in very open-ended terms. i.e., it depicts a vision of heaven and earth where life of every kind can flourish. A vision we may or may not share and that may or may not come to pass. Similarly, it calls us to affirm life and to make this vision a reality. A calling we may choose to ignore for any number of reasons or alternate paths.

The point being, to your point, Mother Earth and all her children are the ones who must transform. And if we think of God (at least at bare minimum) as providing the waking function as you say here to such a transformation -- then it all starts to fit together quite nicely.

To look at it otherwise, it comes down to whether we simply let some natural course unfold, or whether we stake out a clear vision and do what's needed to direct all things towards it. Proactively defining and working towards a shared end is not dressing things up or fluff but a real option (and perhaps even responsibility) we have in this world. Which to me is what God and the bible is all about.

[William]

William: I myself prefer the thrill of seeing Mother Earth as She truly is - some demonic-like entity who has been manifesting Her particular projections out into that which She is awakening to - slowly and surely... and in the process, I hope to witness therein a transformation of a demon-like entity into a god-like entity...and be a part of that rather than dressing it up n too much fluff that I distort things far too impractically.

[Replying to theophile in post #72]

I tend to agree we shouldn't dress it up or add too much fluff.

Just how much is 'too much' is up to the individual...

But to be clear, I think the bible presents things in very open-ended terms. i.e., it depicts a vision of heaven and earth where life of every kind can flourish. A vision we may or may not share and that may or may not come to pass. Similarly, it calls us to affirm life and to make this vision a reality. A calling we may choose to ignore for any number of reasons or alternate paths.

I am unconvinced that we can choose to ignore or that there are any alternative paths.

The point being, to your point, Mother Earth and all her children are the ones who must transform.

In what way must the Earth Entity transform in relation to the rest of the Universe She and Her Children are within?

And if we think of God (at least at bare minimum) as providing the waking function as you say here to such a transformation -- then it all starts to fit together quite nicely.

The "waking function" involves the acceptance of what is and adapting to that. How does "God" provide this?

To look at it otherwise, it comes down to whether we simply let some natural course unfold, or whether we stake out a clear vision and do what's needed to direct all things towards it.

This - of course - is subject to projection.
We can understand that 'subduing nature' may involve taming it...clearing the jungle while planting the forest...
Nature comes from a dark place as can be identified in its forms and their functions.
The Earth Entity can rightly be referred to as a "God" due to Her creative abilities and intelligence quota.
Yet, there is an underlying symbiotic reach to become 'better' which tends toward a manifested materialism prompted by a variety of pathway's all heading in the same direction.
n that sense, it can be argued that while it can be agreed the Earth Entity is a God - it is something of a "God in the making" - a consciousness fine-tuning its God-like abilities toward that goal of becoming "God-Like" similar to a child maturing into an adult...

Proactively defining and working towards a shared end is not dressing things up or fluff but a real option (and perhaps even responsibility) we have in this world. Which to me is what God and the bible is all about.

Clearly "God and the Bible" are not examples of any complete - adult - GOD as we can identify aspects of the biblical idea(s) of GOD as being immature...like a brilliant Child who still has much to learn about itself and its surroundings - even that it knows more about those things than Humans do.
This is why I think that Religions [no matter the paths] are all attempts of The Earth Entity to connect with and to direct Humanity.

YHWH is one of the Names the Earth Entity uses for this purpose.

What is occurring is that humanity is being heavily influenced by The Earth Entity, in a variety of ways - not just through the path of Christianity.

And what is it we are being 'saved' to and from?

My overall answer to that question is "Saved from our incomplete selves to our completed selves" and this process takes a number of steps, this Experiential Reality being one such step.

Today's Generated Message

[theophile]

William: I myself prefer the thrill of seeing Mother Earth as She truly is - some demonic-like entity who has been manifesting Her particular projections out into that which She is awakening to - slowly and surely... and in the process, I hope to witness therein a transformation of a demon-like entity into a god-like entity...and be a part of that rather than dressing it up n too much fluff that I distort things far too impractically.

I don't think this idea is inconsistent with the bible or biblical God. For example, God is not the creator of Mother Earth in the bible. Mother Earth is her own thing / an active and independent character in creation and the broader narrative. God is simply a spirit that calls upon her in the beginning ('her' being tehom / the deep). Anything else that comes of this, it is either of her alone or her partnership with God. i.e., it is all the result of 'watery-earthly' beings from the deep participating in the Spirit / God's Word. Bringing forth things like light, dry land, vegetation, etc. All things geared towards life in this world.

Union with the Spirit is the path to making the transition that you speak of. Where all things are God and God at last is in all things.

But to be clear, I think the bible presents things in very open-ended terms. i.e., it depicts a vision of heaven and earth where life of every kind can flourish. A vision we may or may not share and that may or may not come to pass. Similarly, it calls us to affirm life and to make this vision a reality. A calling we may choose to ignore for any number of reasons or alternate paths.

I am unconvinced that we can choose to ignore or that there are any alternative paths.

We seem perfectly able to drive Mother Earth into the ground should we chose to. We currently are, aren't we? Similarly we can be transformation agents working from within (which is our biblical calling). So seems to me there are alternative paths.

The point being, to your point, Mother Earth and all her children are the ones who must transform.

In what way must the Earth Entity transform in relation to the rest of the Universe She and Her Children are within?

You said it first: it (and those within it) must become God. That is a transformation, no? But I would go further and say the whole universe needs to transform in this respect to reach the end. In terms of what that transformation consists of, it's essentially what I said somewhere before: affirming life above all else. Always doing what is in the interest of life, so that all life can be in this world, and the world is filled with life of every kind.

And if we think of God (at least at bare minimum) as providing the waking function as you say here to such a transformation -- then it all starts to fit together quite nicely.

The "waking function" involves the acceptance of what is and adapting to that. How does "God" provide this?

No, it's an awakening to something much greater than this I think. It's more about waking us up to purpose and path. You can't just keep calling that fluff and boil everything down to cold terms like 'accept' and 'adapt'. i.e., instead of just 'accepting', we should set ourselves real purpose in this world, and instead of 'adapting', we should proactively shape the path to fulfilling that intention.

In terms of how God provides this waking function, it's nothing special really. Per previous comment, God's essential being is spirit, which is tantamount to words in our ears, or ideas, which have the ability to wake us up. That is to say, while I think God can be much more than this, God is not necessarily anything more than what you could call pure intention. i.e., something that has no real physical (/earthly) being at all, but that can nevertheless speak to us, call us to greater purpose, and motivate our action.

In other words, as with all other spirits which can have similar effect (like the spirit of capitalism for example), God can awaken Mother Earth, but the forcing function behind that call will always be Mother Earth and/or those who make her up.

To look at it otherwise, it comes down to whether we simply let some natural course unfold, or whether we stake out a clear vision and do what's needed to direct all things towards it.

This - of course - is subject to projection.
We can understand that 'subduing nature' may involve taming it...clearing the jungle while planting the forest...
Nature comes from a dark place as can be identified in its forms and their functions.
The Earth Entity can rightly be referred to as a "God" due to Her creative abilities and intelligence quota.
Yet, there is an underlying symbiotic reach to become 'better' which tends toward a manifested materialism prompted by a variety of pathway's all heading in the same direction.
n that sense, it can be argued that while it can be agreed the Earth Entity is a God - it is something of a "God in the making" - a consciousness fine-tuning its God-like abilities toward that goal of becoming "God-Like" similar to a child maturing into an adult...

What does 'better' mean? You may call my view fluff, but I feel like your view needs more positive content than becoming 'god-like' (and apologies if you provided before). If it's in your notion of a 'manifested materialism,' what do you mean by that?
Also, what is the basis for saying the whole thing 'tends toward' a certain direction? Not sure if Mother Earth tends towards anything on her own frankly. All the life on earth for instance can be wiped out in a dash and the whole universe for all we know is tending towards nothing. i.e., a vast, empty space.

All that said, when I read the above, I get a sense of what I would call common grace (co-opting a theological term for my own purposes). By which I mean, the bible certainly doesn't have a monopoly on truth, and to your point, a variety of pathways may point us in the same direction. But whether we go that direction or not depends on us. Not some abstract Earth Entity or even God.

Proactively defining and working towards a shared end is not dressing things up or fluff but a real option (and perhaps even responsibility) we have in this world. Which to me is what God and the bible is all about.

Clearly "God and the Bible" are not examples of any complete - adult - GOD as we can identify aspects of the biblical idea(s) of GOD as being immature...like a brilliant Child who still has much to learn about itself and its surroundings - even that it knows more about those things than Humans do.
This is why I think that Religions [no matter the paths] are all attempts of The Earth Entity to connect with and to direct Humanity.

YHWH is one of the Names the Earth Entity uses for this purpose.

What is occurring is that humanity is being heavily influenced by The Earth Entity, in a variety of ways - not just through the path of Christianity.

And what is it we are being 'saved' to and from?

My overall answer to that question is "Saved from our incomplete selves to our completed selves" and this process takes a number of steps, this Experiential Reality being one such step.

Does this Earth Entity have intention? I get the sense from what you say that you think it does, and we should just shut-up and do what it says. In terms of salvation, I would say it is more simply from death to life. Or, along the lines you're going, from death to even greater life than we ever knew before.

[William]

[Replying to theophile in post #74]

222 444 666

Does this Earth Entity have intention?

I think that the evidence of life suggests that "She" does

I get the sense from what you say that you think it does, and we should just shut-up and do what it says.

I get the same sense from Christians re the Bible God. I think it is fair advice and the "commands" from the Biblical God are not something we wouldn't expect to hear from the EE, if She were an entity able to do this...

In terms of salvation, I would say it is more simply from death to life. Or, along the lines you're going, from death to even greater life than we ever knew before.

How would the EE accommodate that, so that the individual might continue to experience being, even after the individuals body became useless as a viable means of experience?
Perhaps clues which might help answer that question can be found in nature? With chemical assistance and with OOBEs and NDEs where folk experience what it is like to die...

[christian001]

This video gives a clear and simple explanation about salvation. https://www.explainchristianity.com/wha ... -be-saved/