Jesus is God

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Wootah
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Jesus is God

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

You can watch this video to get the argument



The argument around 1:21 says look at Mark 1:1-4
1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[a] the Son of God, 2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”[c]—
3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’”[d]

4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.


[c] Which quotes malachi 3:1

3 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.


and [d] quotes Isaiah 40:3

3 A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lord[a];
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God.


If Mark is quoting Malachi and Isaiah and they are referencing YHWH and saying the messenger is preparing the way before YHWH and making straing paths for YHWH then, since we John is the messenger then Jesus is YHWH.

Rebuttals?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:46 am

MALACHI 3 VERSE 1

Look! I am sending my messenger [1] [JOHN THE BAPTIST], and he will clear up a way before me.+ And suddenly the true Lord [2] [YHWH], whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant [3][JESUS]will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies




JW
Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:56 pmHow long did God stay at his temple for?

God stayed at the temple for as long as necessary.
Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:56 pm Did Jesus know God was in the house when he turned over the money tables?

Of course.

If you have a point to make do you think you can state what it is in s complete statement rather than a series of questions. I take it you feel that it is impossible God would "come to his temple" but I'm not sure why. Could you explain what you are finding difficult in words (english)?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #12

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #11]

You said
Speaker YHWH (Jehovah) :
1st Messenger : John
2nd Messenger of the COVENANT : Jesus
***YHWH (who sent the TWO messengers) comes to his temple ***
But Mark wrote
1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[a] the Son of God, 2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”[c]—
3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’”[d]

4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
So Mark and the Bible is implying that Malachi comes before Isaiah. Which implies the ordering of 1st Messenger then God.
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
Isn't the text implying that the order for you should be Messenger 1, Lord, Messenger 2?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:58 am
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
Isn't the text implying that the order for you should be Messenger 1, Lord, Messenger 2?
Malachi does not link the events with "then" or "next" so I see no reason to be overly fixated on the sequence.


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #14

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #13]

Well, you kinda need to be. What was the evidence that God had returned to his temple? Jesus cleaned it out so was God there at the time? When did God leave?

edit: Do you think you have the most natural reading of the prophecies and Mark's text? Do you think Mark the original author really intended your interpretation?

edit 2: Can you see how the Jesus is God interpretation would be valid?
Last edited by Wootah on Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:17 am
Malachi does not link the events with "then" or "next" so I see no reason to be overly fixated on the sequence.
Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:39 pm
Well, you kinda need to be.
Why?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #16

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:39 pmWhat was the evidence that God had returned to his temple?
He spoke there and those present heard him.
Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:39 pmJesus cleaned it out so was God there at the time?
Yes
Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:39 pmWhen did God leave?

When he saw all He needed to see.


I HAVE ANSWERED THESE QUESTIONS BEFORE ...

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:26 am
Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:56 pmHow long did God stay at his temple for?

God stayed at the temple for as long as necessary.
Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:56 pm Did Jesus know God was in the house when he turned over the money tables?

Of course.

If you have a point to make do you think you can state what it is in s complete statement rather than a series of questions. I take it you feel that it is impossible God would "come to his temple" but I'm not sure why. Could you explain what you are finding difficult in words (english)?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #17

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #16]

Look I think in fairness to you those questions are just trying to get you to really think about what you are doing to the text.

Last one: Can you see how the Jesus is God interpretation of the text would be valid?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #18

Post by Eddie Ramos »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:50 pm
Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:39 pmWhat was the evidence that God had returned to his temple?
He spoke there and those present heard him.
Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:39 pmJesus cleaned it out so was God there at the time?
Yes
Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:39 pmWhen did God leave?
When he saw all He needed to see.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:26 am
Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:56 pmHow long did God stay at his temple for?

God stayed at the temple for as long as necessary.
Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:56 pm Did Jesus know God was in the house when he turned over the money tables?
Of course.
I think that a very important factor is missing in the above equations about Jehovah being in that physical temple.

Acts 7:47–48 (KJV 1900)
But Solomon built him an house. 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Acts 17:24 (KJV 1900)
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;


So we can be sure that whatever Malachi 3:1 is saying regarding Jehovah coming to his temple has nothing to do with him coming to the physical temple but with another temple altogether, his own physical body.

John 2:19–21 (KJV 1900)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.


If we study the words in Malachi 3:1 translated as "come to" (בּוֹא), we see that it's very often used to describe entering into something.

Genesis 6:18 (KJV 1900)
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come (בּוֹא) into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.

Genesis 7:13 (KJV 1900)
In the selfsame day entered (בּוֹא) Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;


This fits perfectly with what God said he would do in Malachi 3:1.

Malachi 3:1 (KJV 1900)
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: (this is Jhon the Baptist)
And the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, (what Israel was seeking for was the messiah (the Christ) to deliver them) and to restore Israel. But here it says that they sought Jehovah to come. And he did, in the form of the body of Jesus Christ did Jehovah come to his temple).
Even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:
Behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.


The words, "even the messenger" are not 3 separate Hebrew words, but one. That makes the correct translation, "even the messenger" which is not describing someone else but the same individual spoken of earlier, Jehovah who was to come.

This of course continues to agree with many other passages throughout the Bible.

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV 1900)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
And the government shall be upon his shoulder:
And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


How can a child that is born be called the everlasting Father? Because this child was none other than God in the flesh, or in his temple.
Also:

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV 1900)
14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
And shall call his name Immanuel. (And the fulfilment tells what this name means).

Matthew 1:23 (KJV 1900)
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


Continual agreement teaches us that we are on the right path in our understanding.

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV 1900)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (This was Christ)

Jesus Christ is Almighty God in the flesh? The Bible continues to say yes, without the need to add or change the text.

John 1:1 (KJV 1900)
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (The Word is Jesus Christ and we're told that he was God in the very beginning).

John 1:14 (KJV 1900)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


God was made flesh and dwelt among mankind? Everything we have read so far from the scriptures agrees that tis was absolutely the case. This is why this passage is so important to understand:

1 John 4:1–3 (KJV 1900)
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


Confessing that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not a literal verbal confession because anyone can confess that. Even Muslims confess that. But the confession being spoken of here is of everything the scriptures mentioned above. Every spirit (person) that confesses that Jesus is come in the flesh has to do with acknowledging that God has come in the flesh. This is where a major test comes in with anyone who believes to be a true child of God, because denying everything that talks about how God came in the flesh in the form of the man Christ Jesus, reveals the blindness of those individuals who claim they can see, just like the Pharisees.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:26 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:50 pm
Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:39 pmWhat was the evidence that God had returned to his temple?
He spoke there and those present heard him.
Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:39 pmJesus cleaned it out so was God there at the time?
Yes
Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:39 pmWhen did God leave?
When he saw all He needed to see.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 12:26 am
Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:56 pmHow long did God stay at his temple for?

God stayed at the temple for as long as necessary.
Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:56 pm Did Jesus know God was in the house when he turned over the money tables?
Of course.
I think that a very important factor is missing in the above equations about Jehovah being in that physical temple.

Acts 7:47–48 (KJV 1900)
But Solomon built him an house. 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Acts 17:24 (KJV 1900)
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;


So we can be sure that whatever Malachi 3:1 is saying regarding Jehovah coming to his temple has nothing to do with him coming to the physical temple but with another temple altogether, his own physical body.

John 2:19–21 (KJV 1900)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.


If we study the words in Malachi 3:1 translated as "come to" (בּוֹא), we see that it's very often used to describe entering into something.

Genesis 6:18 (KJV 1900)
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come (בּוֹא) into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.

Genesis 7:13 (KJV 1900)
In the selfsame day entered (בּוֹא) Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;


This fits perfectly with what God said he would do in Malachi 3:1.

Malachi 3:1 (KJV 1900)
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: (this is Jhon the Baptist)
And the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, (what Israel was seeking for was the messiah (the Christ) to deliver them) and to restore Israel. But here it says that they sought Jehovah to come. And he did, in the form of the body of Jesus Christ did Jehovah come to his temple).
Even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:
Behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.


The words, "even the messenger" are not 3 separate Hebrew words, but one. That makes the correct translation, "even the messenger" which is not describing someone else but the same individual spoken of earlier, Jehovah who was to come.

This of course continues to agree with many other passages throughout the Bible.

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV 1900)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
And the government shall be upon his shoulder:
And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


How can a child that is born be called the everlasting Father? Because this child was none other than God in the flesh, or in his temple.
Also:

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV 1900)
14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
And shall call his name Immanuel. (And the fulfilment tells what this name means).

Matthew 1:23 (KJV 1900)
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


Continual agreement teaches us that we are on the right path in our understanding.

1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV 1900)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (This was Christ)

Jesus Christ is Almighty God in the flesh? The Bible continues to say yes, without the need to add or change the text.

John 1:1 (KJV 1900)
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (The Word is Jesus Christ and we're told that he was God in the very beginning).

John 1:14 (KJV 1900)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


God was made flesh and dwelt among mankind? Everything we have read so far from the scriptures agrees that tis was absolutely the case. This is why this passage is so important to understand:

1 John 4:1–3 (KJV 1900)
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


Confessing that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not a literal verbal confession because anyone can confess that. Even Muslims confess that. But the confession being spoken of here is of everything the scriptures mentioned above. Every spirit (person) that confesses that Jesus is come in the flesh has to do with acknowledging that God has come in the flesh. This is where a major test comes in with anyone who believes to be a true child of God, because denying everything that talks about how God came in the flesh in the form of the man Christ Jesus, reveals the blindness of those individuals who claim they can see, just like the Pharisees.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

All very interesting scriptures. I take it you will not be explaining any of them. Excellent use of copy paste though. Congratulations!
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #20

Post by Eddie Ramos »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:54 am All very interesting scriptures. I take it you will not be explaining any of them. Excellent use of copy paste though. Congratulations!
That would have made for a very long reply. And honestly, I thought everyone copy and pasted their scriptures, it does save time. And I did explain Micah 3:1, but please let me know which verses specifically you would like me to address and we can go over them one at a time to see how they harmonize with the Bible as a whole.

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