I disagree with Christians. Slavery and rape are WRONG

[anotheratheisthere]

As you all know, Exodus 21 (the passage right after the 10 commandments) completely and fully condones slavery.

It starts by saying "If you buy a Hebrew slave". It then goes on to saying that if you beat your slave to death, it's a bad thing, but if you beat him and after a couple of days he is still alive, then it's ok, because that slave is your property after all.

It says that if you give your slave a wife, and he has children with her, then the children are the property of you the master, not of the slave.

Go read it. Read the whole of Exodus 20 (the ten commandments) and Exodus 21 back to back.

The Bible also condones rape. In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 it says that if a man rapes a woman, then she is forced to marry him. There are another 9 passages in the bible which condone or even encourage rape.

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. Slavery is wrong and rape is wrong. Period. The Bible is WRONG to condone and encourage them.

Anybody who gives any validity whatsoever to a book that condones two of the most horrible things a human being can do is wrong. Anybody who believes that such a twisted and sick book was written by some kind of benevolent omnipotent invisible man in the sky is delusional. Anybody who takes inspiration or moral guidance from such a twisted text is perverted.

[cnorman18]

By the way cnorman, you never got back to me with an explanation of why the US Depart of Defense, the UN Register on Conventional Arms, the United States Bureau of Justice Statistics, the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime are, I quote you, "ranting fanatical extremist minorities" because they state that the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world, largest weapon exportation rate, highest gun murder rate, and highest civilian death in war rate.

What happened?

Please go back to the "Us troops are warriors now" thread, and explain to me why I am an extremist for taking at face value the statistical data provided by these US and UN agencies.

I'm so confused, I thought that theists would keep their word because it's a sin to bear false witness.

So, since your profile says you are civil and accept corrections, I was expecting you to either be "civil" and explain to me why you would call me a fanatical extremist for merely quoting statistical data from reputable sources, or "accept corrections" and concede that those US and UN agencies are not fundamentalist extremist entities. Because if you don't do that, then you are bearing false witness when you claim you are civil and accept corrections.

Please pray to your invisible man in the sky, and find the strength to stand for what you believe in. You believe that lying is wrong, so live up to your words and admit you were wrong to insult me.

Your objections were answered on the other thread, and you never responded to them.

To repeat; It is very clear to any observer that I don't argue against your statistics, but your take on their significance. Your claim that I was calling various government and international agencies extremists is blatantly disingenuous and dishonest, i.e., putting words in my mouth. Want to talk about "bearing false witness" again? Or does that prohibition not apply to you as an atheist? (If you didn't get the point of that remark, mocking another member's beliefs and insulting him on that basis is not "civil.")

Do you deny that you are at the extreme left of the political spectrum? If not, what's the problem?

Further; you are confusing disagreement with lying. I am not ethically obligated to agree with your rants, and it is WAY over the line to allege that I am lying because I disagree with your conclusions. If we're talking about alleged insults vs. reasonable descriptions, let's start there.

I will not respond to this nonsense on this thread again. If you want to continue with your claims and allegations, start another.

[The Nice Centurion]

As you all know, Exodus 21 (the passage right after the 10 commandments) completely and fully condones slavery.

It starts by saying "If you buy a Hebrew slave". It then goes on to saying that if you beat your slave to death, it's a bad thing, but if you beat him and after a couple of days he is still alive, then it's ok, because that slave is your property after all.

It says that if you give your slave a wife, and he has children with her, then the children are the property of you the master, not of the slave.

Go read it. Read the whole of Exodus 20 (the ten commandments) and Exodus 21 back to back.

The Bible also condones rape. In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 it says that if a man rapes a woman, then she is forced to marry him. There are another 9 passages in the bible which condone or even encourage rape.

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. Slavery is wrong and rape is wrong. Period. The Bible is WRONG to condone and encourage them.

Anybody who gives any validity whatsoever to a book that condones two of the most horrible things a human being can do is wrong. Anybody who believes that such a twisted and sick book was written by some kind of benevolent omnipotent invisible man in the sky is delusional. Anybody who takes inspiration or moral guidance from such a twisted text is perverted.

Christians say that bible god owns objective morality.
That would make Rape and Slavery objectively right.

Objectively wrong therefore would be to suffer homosexualists and witches to live.

Today most christians love to wage war against homosexualists and witches, yet they wont even speak against the main inner christian problem: Yes, I mean Pedophilians.

If this is perverted, than it is objectively right to be perverted!

The OP calls all christians delusional, that cant be allowed by forum rules.

Because some do not like the allegedly objective morality of scripture does not mean it cant be written by a god.

[bjs1]

Christians say that bible god owns objective morality.
That would make Rape and Slavery objectively right.

The Bible does say that rape (Deuteronomy 22:25) or forcing someone to become a slave (Exodus 21:16) both carry the death penalty. So it doesn’t seem entirely accurate to say that the Bible treats either of these things are morally right.

[The Nice Centurion]

Christians say that bible god owns objective morality.
That would make Rape and Slavery objectively right.

The Bible does say that rape (Deuteronomy 22:25) or forcing someone to become a slave (Exodus 21:16) both carry the death penalty. So it doesn’t seem entirely accurate to say that the Bible treats either of these things are morally right.

There are also bible gods commands to marry the daughters of familys slain by the bridegrooms.
There are also bible gods tips how to own slaves.

So rape and slavery it is.
But back then both was seen as objectively good!

[Miles]

Christians say that bible god owns objective morality.
That would make Rape and Slavery objectively right.

The Bible does say that rape (Deuteronomy 22:25) or forcing someone to become a slave (Exodus 21:16) both carry the death penalty. So it doesn’t seem entirely accurate to say that the Bible treats either of these things are morally right.

Actually, the rape mentioned in Deuteronomy 22:25 is qualified a bit. The female must be engaged (betrothed) and the act must take place in a field.

Deuteronomy 22:25
But if a man rapes an engaged girl out in the country, then only the man must die.

However, if a guy rapes a non-engaged woman in a city, and it's witnessed by others, he doesn't have to die, but has to marry the woman. Lucky her!



As for forcing someone to become a slave, the qualifier in Exodus 21:16 is that the slave must have been stolen.

Exodus 21:16
16 “Whoever steals someone to sell them as a slave or to keep them for their own slave must be killed.

Buying a slave, inheriting a slave, or receiving an infant born of one's slave are all legitimate ways of obtaining slaves.

.

[bjs1]

Christians say that bible god owns objective morality.
That would make Rape and Slavery objectively right.

The Bible does say that rape (Deuteronomy 22:25) or forcing someone to become a slave (Exodus 21:16) both carry the death penalty. So it doesn’t seem entirely accurate to say that the Bible treats either of these things are morally right.

Actually, the rape mentioned in Deuteronomy 22:25 is qualified a bit. The female must be engaged (betrothed) and the act must take place in a field.

Deuteronomy 22:25
But if a man rapes an engaged girl out in the country, then only the man must die.

However, if a guy rapes a non-engaged woman in a city, and it's witnessed by others, he doesn't have to die, but has to marry the woman. Lucky her!

Unless she “cries out” that she is being raped, at which point she is to be defended and the man executed.

As for forcing someone to become a slave, the qualifier in Exodus 21:16 is that the slave must have been stolen.

Exodus 21:16
16 “Whoever steals someone to sell them as a slave or to keep them for their own slave must be killed.

Buying a slave, inheriting a slave, or receiving an infant born of one's slave are all legitimate ways of obtaining slaves.

.

So a person can be purchased as a slave, but only if that person willingly sold themselves into slavery (and all slaves were to be released every forty years.). I don’t suppose there is any chance that we could consider the Bible a document which deals with complicated underlying concepts that were applied to specific culture that had fundamentally different values than modern wester society?

[Miles]

Christians say that bible god owns objective morality.
That would make Rape and Slavery objectively right.

The Bible does say that rape (Deuteronomy 22:25) or forcing someone to become a slave (Exodus 21:16) both carry the death penalty. So it doesn’t seem entirely accurate to say that the Bible treats either of these things are morally right.

Actually, the rape mentioned in Deuteronomy 22:25 is qualified a bit. The female must be engaged (betrothed) and the act must take place in a field.

Deuteronomy 22:25
But if a man rapes an engaged girl out in the country, then only the man must die.

However, if a guy rapes a non-engaged woman in a city, and it's witnessed by others, he doesn't have to die, but has to marry the woman. Lucky her!

Unless she “cries out” that she is being raped, at which point she is to be defended and the man executed.

As for forcing someone to become a slave, the qualifier in Exodus 21:16 is that the slave must have been stolen.

Exodus 21:16
16 “Whoever steals someone to sell them as a slave or to keep them for their own slave must be killed.

Buying a slave, inheriting a slave, or receiving an infant born of one's slave are all legitimate ways of obtaining slaves.

.

So a person can be purchased as a slave, but only if that person willingly sold themselves into slavery

Balderdash! I await your evidence.

(and all slaves were to be released every forty years.).

Poppycock

Leviticus 25:44-46
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever.

Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

I don’t suppose there is any chance that we could consider the Bible a document which deals with complicated underlying concepts that were applied to specific culture that had fundamentally different values than modern wester society?

Only if you like playing with it I suppose. Unless there's good reason to do differently, I take the Bible as written.


.

[Tcg]

So a person can be purchased as a slave, but only if that person willingly sold themselves into slavery (and all slaves were to be released every forty years.). I don’t suppose there is any chance that we could consider the Bible a document which deals with complicated underlying concepts that were applied to specific culture that had fundamentally different values than modern wester society?

That quite simply doesn't add up. No mention of these slaves willingly entering into slavery. Additionally, non-Israelites could be slaves for life as inherited property.

Leviticus 25:44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.'"

This is supposedly from God's law, not a specific culture's values and yes God's values include allowing his favorite people to own slaves for life. And yes, our values in modern western society are vastly different than God's and modern western society is vastly improved because of it.


Tcg

[The Nice Centurion]

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. Slavery is wrong and rape is wrong. Period. The Bible is WRONG to condone and encourage them.

And sorry you should be. Not only because you got yourself banned, but also because of your flawed sense of morality that brings you to question the bible.
"Wrong" is never objective and therefore you only state you private viewpoint.

Anybody who gives any validity whatsoever to a book that condones two of the most horrible things a human being can do is wrong. Anybody who believes that such a twisted and sick book was written by some kind of benevolent omnipotent invisible man in the sky is delusional. Anybody who takes inspiration or moral guidance from such a twisted text is perverted.

He Is benevolent - to rapers and slaveholders. And he for milenniums benevolently protected pedophilians in the ranks of churches like catholics and Jehovahs Witnesses from mens law..

What else is he to do to gain your favor ?

[bjs1]

So a person can be purchased as a slave, but only if that person willingly sold themselves into slavery

Balderdash! I await your evidence.

Didn't you already provide it? You quoted Exodus 21:16, which says, “Whoever steals someone to sell them as a slave or to keep them for their own slave must be killed." According to the OT law, to force a person into slavery (that is, when they did not willingly sell themselves) was a capital offense.