How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

[otseng]

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Thread Milestones

• Case study of Hezekiah
• Start discussing global flood / Flood Model summary
• Recap arguments of authority of the Bible
• Start discussing Tower of Babel / Tower of Babel summary
• Start discussing archaeology / Philosophy of science / Origin of alphabet / End of discussion on archaeology
• Start discussing cosmology / Concluding cosmology
• Start discussing Shroud of Turin / Summary top TS imaging theories / Created DefendingChristianity.com and TS subforums / Shroud of Turin summary
• Start discussing Bible and resurrection
• Start discussing the Messiahship of Jesus / Messiahship of Jesus wrap up
• Start discussing Old Testament ethics
• Summary argument of atheism and morality / God basis for objective morality
• Start discussing genocide / Genocide summary argument
• Start discussing slavery / Slavery summary argument
• Start discussing homosexuality / Homosexuality summary argument
• Old Testament ethics summary argument

[Diogenes]

What if back then things were different?
Flat earth with sun evolving [sic] around it?
This could also explain sun standing still!
For mark; it isnt written that it looked like sun standing still.
It is written that sun indeed stood still!

And as you yourself said; Bible god is not supposed to lie.

Pardon your embarrassment, but... uh... you can't be serious.

But in case this isn't offered as a joke...
The mass of the Earth and therefore it's gravity + surface tension* precludes it being anything but an almost perfect sphere. Since the Sun has a mass about 330,000 times that of Earth its gigantic gravity results in it being impossible, ever, for the Earth to have been the center of the solar system.

_____________________
*Try blowing a flat bubble

[William]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1179]

Is this the crux? Inerrant - "incapable of being wrong".
How can we trust the Bible if it's not incapable of being wrong?
The bible has to be capable of being wrong, in order for it to be trusted?

The bible is considered to be the word of a GOD who is incapable of being wrong.

How to reconcile this oxymoron?

The GOD is right to allow for His Word to be capable of being wrong, when written through the instrument of Human Beings.

If so, why is the GOD right in having things done in this manner?

[Diogenes]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1179]

Is this the crux? Inerrant - "incapable of being wrong".
How can we trust the Bible if it's not incapable of being wrong?
The bible has to be capable of being wrong, in order for it to be trusted?

The bible is considered to be the word of a GOD who is incapable of being wrong.

How to reconcile this oxymoron?

The GOD is right to allow for His Word to be capable of being wrong, when written through the instrument of Human Beings.

If so, why is the GOD right in having things done in this manner?

What "oxymoron?" You do not quote me. Instead, you speak for yourself and attribute it to me. Are you incapable of comprehending English? God is "supposed" to be incapable of being wrong. Yet the Bible is full of errors, including errors of cosmology. Yet the Bible describes a flat Earth, the center of the universe, the center of the solar system. This is a gross cosmological error; therefore, 'god' was wrong and is not a god. There is no oxymoron here [you may have meant 'contradiction in terms' edit: gratuitous insult removed with apology to William ].
Simply put, the cosmology of the Bible is wrong; therefore, God did not author the Bible.
Conclusion: we cannot trust the Bible because it is full of error. It is the work of men, not gods.

[The Nice Centurion]

What if back then things were different?
Flat earth with sun evolving [sic] around it?
This could also explain sun standing still!
For mark; it isnt written that it looked like sun standing still.
It is written that sun indeed stood still!

And as you yourself said; Bible god is not supposed to lie.

Pardon your embarrassment, but... uh... you can't be serious.

But in case this isn't offered as a joke...
The mass of the Earth and therefore it's gravity + surface tension* precludes it being anything but an almost perfect sphere. Since the Sun has a mass about 330,000 times that of Earth its gigantic gravity results in it being impossible, ever, for the Earth to have been the center of the solar system.

_____________________
*Try blowing a flat bubble

Meant in context to christian religion, this was no more meant to be a joke than gap creationists are joking with gap creationism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_creationism

What I find embarassing is the implication that an omnipotent god cant change the solar system and his laws at whim, or cant create an for todays phisic science impossible solar system.

I get it that you think: "Sounds embarassing to me. And surely bible god would never do something that sounds embarassing to me!"

And I think for the same reason christians dont think of this obvious god plot.

But exactly that is not reasonable.

Let me try to explain again.

1) Christians say: Bible gets everythimg right.

2) But christians have all hands full to rape flat earth and geocentric earth out of bible.

3) Christians try to somehow save face for such lesser problems like sun standing still.

4) But all miracles of the bible and Jesus resurrection and his flying to space is to be believed.

5) There is no reason (other than the fact that people illogically laugh at that) to exclude the possibility that omnipotent god or other mighty magicdoers of bible universe didnt alter the solar system.

6) I cant in think of another way to have a perfect bible that tells the truth and accept todays solar system.

7) Further: My 5 cents are not on bible god altering solar system, but rather on Satan.

It reeks of Satan to alter a beautyful flat earth with a revolving sun into todays kopernikus hogwash universe.

Then when did Satan do this, you will ask.

We know from Jesus crucifying that the sun stood still, which guaratees geocentrism of course.

According to famous christian artist Jack Chick, Satan was furious about Jesus Sacrifice.
So how much more must Satan have been enraged about the resurrection, the ascension - And Christs flying on a cloud to the Nephites might have been the last straw.

So Satan altered the Solar system while Christ preached to the Nephites.

He altered it, so that humans would distrust the bi le!

[William]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #1184]

I don't know how much of this apparent conspiracy-like rant is true.

So far, I agree that it is possible that the Bible-God had the correct foresight to see the wisdom in humans who felt they had a relationship with Him, to allow them to share that with others - in their own words - even that those words might have the effect of transmitting and diffusing the image of the God so that the true nature beyond wouldn't be seen clearly through such device.

In that, when it comes to imagery, the Bible cannot be trusted, even that the imagery is an attempt to make something unnoticed, become more noticed...

It is up to the individual to connect with any Cosmic Mind which may exist even if this means distrusting the bible [as being the last word on the matter] for those obvious reasons.

[otseng]

Your contention all along is that the Bible was written by God (working thru men perhaps) and therefore can be trusted.

What do you mean my contention? Where did I say this? Please provide the link to this.

God is supposed to exist and be the creator of the universe. Surely such a creator would have known billions of years ago, not to mention when Genesis was written, that the Sun was and is the center of the solar system, that with its massive gravity the Earth and the rest of the planets revolved around the Sun. Still, 'He' got it wrong.

Your line of reasoning is a strawman argument unless you can provide the quote where I claimed God wrote the Bible. And who ever said God needs to write a scientific treatise on cosmology? These are only what you are imposing on what God and the Bible should be. And since it's not like that, then of course it can be easily attacked.

I'm more convinced these strawman attacks are the only things skeptics have. Myths about the church espousing a flat earth, about a snow dome cosmology, about the Bible stating the earth is flat, about God must write a "perfect" Bible and that everything in it needs to be scientifically accurate.

[Bust Nak]

Are you incapable of comprehending English? ...won't hold your lack of expertise in English against you.

Moderator Comment

Tone down the rhetorics please, you are that close to getting a warning.

Please review the Rules.



______________



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[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to otseng in post #1186]
Mainstream christianity believes the ?(KJV mostly) bible to be perfect!

Mohamedans say bible got imperfect.
Joseph Smith and Thomas Jefferson bettered out the bible.

Sure there are christians out trhere who believe the bible to be not perfect.
Is that what you also believe?

[otseng]

Sure there are christians out trhere who believe the bible to be not perfect.
Is that what you also believe?

Yes. This entire thread assumes the Bible is not inerrant.

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

And as I've demonstrated over the past 120 pages, the Bible can still be considered reliable and trustworthy, even if it's not "perfect".

[Diogenes]

Your contention all along is that the Bible was written by God (working thru men perhaps) and therefore can be trusted.

What do you mean my contention? Where did I say this? Please provide the link to this.

God is supposed to exist and be the creator of the universe. Surely such a creator would have known billions of years ago, not to mention when Genesis was written, that the Sun was and is the center of the solar system, that with its massive gravity the Earth and the rest of the planets revolved around the Sun. Still, 'He' got it wrong.

Your line of reasoning is a strawman argument unless you can provide the quote where I claimed God wrote the Bible. And who ever said God needs to write a scientific treatise on cosmology? These are only what you are imposing on what God and the Bible should be. And since it's not like that, then of course it can be easily attacked.

I'm more convinced these strawman attacks are the only things skeptics have. Myths about the church espousing a flat earth, about a snow dome cosmology, about the Bible stating the earth is flat, about God must write a "perfect" Bible and that everything in it needs to be scientifically accurate.

I apologize and appreciate your concession that God did not write the Bible, if in fact you are admitting that. If God did not write it (using men) than what is the point of this subtopic, now nearly 1200 posts long? I agree the errors in the Bible come from men; therefore, why should it be trusted any more than any other book (or sets of books)?

It seems an equivocation to attribute the work to God, and then say He did not write it or inspire it word for word. Which is it? Can we just blithely say "God inspired it, but the errors are those of men?" Apologists fall back on "translation errors," but it seems disingenuous to go back an retranslate every time a new scientific discovery embarrasses the Biblical literalists.

And what are the translation errors in

New International Version
So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.

New Living Translation
So the sun stood still and the moon stayed in place until the nation of Israel had defeated its enemies. Is this event not recorded in The Book of Jashar ? The sun stayed in the middle of the sky, and it did not set as on a normal day.

English Standard Version
And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

Berean Study Bible
So the sun stood still and the moon stopped until the nation took vengeance upon its enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? “So the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.”

Is this passage more consistent with a flat, geocentric Earth, or our current cosmology? It is certainly consistent with the description in Genesis.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2d Timothy 3:16

Was Paul correct?

You wrote:

And who ever said God needs to write a scientific treatise on cosmology?

"God" would not "need" to do anything. But isn't the claim that God is perfect? That his Word is without error? Why would there be two contradictory creation stories in Genesis? Why would the Bible (not necessarily "The Church") describe the Earth as flat and immovable if it is "God breathed" and "profitable for correction?"