Jesus is God

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Wootah
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Jesus is God

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

You can watch this video to get the argument



The argument around 1:21 says look at Mark 1:1-4
1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[a] the Son of God, 2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”[c]—
3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’”[d]

4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.


[c] Which quotes malachi 3:1

3 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.


and [d] quotes Isaiah 40:3

3 A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lord[a];
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God.


If Mark is quoting Malachi and Isaiah and they are referencing YHWH and saying the messenger is preparing the way before YHWH and making straing paths for YHWH then, since we John is the messenger then Jesus is YHWH.

Rebuttals?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #21

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:08 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:54 am All very interesting scriptures. I take it you will not be explaining any of them. Excellent use of copy paste though. Congratulations!
That would have made for a very long reply. ... please let me know which verses specifically you would like me to address and we can go over them one at a time to see how they harmonize with the Bible as a whole.
ALL of them. Take your time I have plenty. Don't forget to explain, how each scripture individually relates to the other, how they relate to the OP and,( if you are addressing me), how they relate to whatever I said.


Over to you,

JEHOVAHS WITNESS
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #22

Post by Eddie Ramos »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:09 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:08 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:54 am All very interesting scriptures. I take it you will not be explaining any of them. Excellent use of copy paste though. Congratulations!
That would have made for a very long reply. ... please let me know which verses specifically you would like me to address and we can go over them one at a time to see how they harmonize with the Bible as a whole.
ALL of them. Take your time I have plenty. Don't forget to explain, how each scripture individually relates to the other, how they relate to the OP and,( if you are addressing me), how they relate to whatever I said.


Over to you,

JEHOVAHS WITNESS
Ok, we can take it one at a time and discuss how the Bible either supports or contradicts either of our position in relation to the deity of Christ as compared to Jehovah which is the main focus of the OP.

And since I already began with the explanation of Malachi 3:1 and how that relates both to the OP, your comments and the Bible, we can talk about that first which would put the ball in your court for correction, if any, from the Bible, in order to keep with the rules of this forum which is designed to be a debate forum rather than a teaching platform.

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:07 am ... I already began with the explanation of Malachi 3:1 and how that relates both to the OP, your comments and the Bible, we can talk about that first which would put the ball in your court ...
I have already provided a full explaination of the verse in question (Malachi) and have nothing to add at the present time. I didn't provide a list of additional scriptures so I see no reason why I should explain any of them for you. I'm happy to read anything you have to add or to answer any questions you have regarding my posts.

In the absence of that, I wish you a most excellent day,


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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #24

Post by Eddie Ramos »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:42 pm ....I wish you a most excellent day,


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Likewise.

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #25

Post by Wootah »

Wootah wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:56 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #16]

Look I think in fairness to you those questions are just trying to get you to really think about what you are doing to the text.

Last one: Can you see how the Jesus is God interpretation of the text would be valid?
Hi JW wondering if you had a response to this question: Can you see how the Jesus is God interpretation of the text would be valid?

Also do you have a link to anything official from the JWs supporting your position?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:39 pm Hi JW wondering if you had a response to this question: Can you see how the Jesus is God interpretation of the text would be valid?
Not really, YHWH is nobody's messenger, as He cannot be subordinate to anyone. The literal temple in Jerusalem is never refered to as being anyone's but Jehovah's (YHWH) .
To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:46 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #27

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:46 am
MALACHI 3 VERSE 1

Look! I am sending my messenger [1] [JOHN THE BAPTIST], and he will clear up a way before me.+ And suddenly the true Lord [2] [YHWH], whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant [3][JESUS]will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies
Wootah wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:39 pmAlso do you have a link to anything official from the JWs supporting your position?
Jehovah through Malachi also warned that he would come to judge his people. “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he must clear up a way before me. And suddenly there will come to His temple the true Lord, whom you people are seeking, and the messenger of the covenant in whom you are delighting. Look! He will certainly come.” (Malachi 3:1) When did the promised coming to the temple take place? At Matthew 11:10, Jesus quoted Malachi’s prophecy of a messenger who would prepare the way and applied it to John the Baptizer. (Malachi 4:5; Matthew 11:14)

So in 29 C.E., the time for judgment had arrived! Who was the second messenger, the messenger of the covenant who would accompany Jehovah, “the true Lord,” to the temple? Jesus himself , and on two occasions he came to the temple in Jerusalem and dramatically cleansed it, casting out the dishonest money changers. (Mark 11:15-17; John 2:14-17) Regarding this first-century time of judgment, Jehovah prophetically asks: “Who will be putting up with the day of his coming, and who will be the one standing when he appears?” (Malachi 3:2) In fact, Israel did not stand. They were inspected, found wanting, and in 33 C.E., they were cast off as Jehovah’s chosen nation.​—Matthew 23:37-39. - Watchtower 1992, December 1 p.11 par 18
Malachi’s prophecy continues: “‘And suddenly there will come to His temple the true Lord, whom you people are seeking, and the messenger of the covenant in whom you are delighting. Look! He will certainly come,’ Jehovah of armies has said.” (Malachi 3:1b) Who was “the true Lord” that would come to his temple “suddenly,” or unexpectedly? The Hebrew expression used is ha·’Adhohnʹ. The use of the definite article ha (“the”) before the title ‘A·dhohnʹ (“Lord; Master”) limits the application of this title exclusively toJehovah God . Indeed, it was to “His temple” that Jehovah would come.​—Habakkuk 2:20; Psalm 11:4.

12. Who is “the messenger of the covenant,” and of what “covenant” is he “the messenger”?

12 After having mentioned one messenger, Malachi indicated that “the true Lord” would come to “His temple” accompanied by another, a different, messenger, “the messenger of the covenant.” Who would this be? Well, in view of how things worked out, it is reasonable to conclude that “the messenger of the covenant” is Jesus Christ , whom John the Baptizer introduced to his disciples as “the Lamb of God.” (John 1:29-34) Of what “covenant” is the Messiah “the messenger”? The evidence of Luke 1:69-75 and Acts 3:12, 19-26 suggests that it is the Abrahamic covenant, on the basis of which the Jews were the first ones to be given the opportunity to become Kingdom heirs.

“The true Lord” Jehovah did not come personally to the literal temple in Jerusalem. (1 Kings 8:27) He came representatively, that is, by means of his “messenger of the covenant,” Jesus Christ, who came in Jehovah’s name and with the backing of God’s holy spirit - Watchtower June 15, 1987 p.12


Search Results (jw.org)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/s/r1/lp-e?q=m ... =par&r=occ


Who is represented by the High Priest in the Jewish temple system?
viewtopic.php?p=1089953#p1089953
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #28

Post by Wootah »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:39 am
Wootah wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:39 pm Hi JW wondering if you had a response to this question: Can you see how the Jesus is God interpretation of the text would be valid?
Not really, YHWH is nobody's messenger, as He cannot be subordinate to anyone. The literal temple in Jerusalem is never refered to as being anyone's but Jehovah's (YHWH) .
To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED
That isn't the claim. No one is saying YHWH is a messenger. John was the messenger. Read Mark again. Just the intro:
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.[a]

2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet,

“Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way,
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare[c] the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,’”

4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #29

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:19 am Not really, YHWH is nobody's messenger, as He cannot be subordinate to anyone. The literal temple in Jerusalem is never refered to as being anyone's but Jehovah's (YHWH) .

Okay.. whatever.... the full explaination of Malachi 3v1 along with 5 pages of supporting literature (279 references) is above as requested.

LINK
viewtopic.php?p=1088419#p1088419




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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Jesus is God

Post #30

Post by Wootah »

Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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