JESUS IS NOT GOD

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JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #481

Post by myth-one.com »

tam wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:13 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to myth-one.com in post #479]

Jesus was born as a Jewish man who was thus a party to that covenant as a possible beneficiary.
And where is He now?
There is no longer any reason for the Word made flesh to exist, as His mission has been successfully accomplished. He has created a better covenant, and is back at the right hand of God:

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

He's back at the right hand of God as the Word, as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #482

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
myth-one.com wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:43 pm
tam wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:13 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to myth-one.com in post #479]

Jesus was born as a Jewish man who was thus a party to that covenant as a possible beneficiary.
And where is He now?
There is no longer any reason for the Word made flesh to exist, as His mission has been successfully accomplished. He has created a better covenant, and is back at the right hand of God:

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

He's back at the right hand of God as the Word, as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Even you speak of the Word and Christ as the same being. Just with a different body. I don't understand why you are trying to suggest that these are two different beings, rather than one being in two different forms/bodies.

**

And if Christ no longer exists (as you seem to be suggesting), then why did He identify as that person when He appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9)?

He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am [Jesus], whom you are persecuting,” he replied.



And again at the end of Revelation?

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”



Peace again to you.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #483

Post by myth-one.com »

tam wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:04 pm Peace to you,
myth-one.com wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:43 pm
tam wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:13 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to myth-one.com in post #479]

Jesus was born as a Jewish man who was thus a party to that covenant as a possible beneficiary.
And where is He now?
There is no longer any reason for the Word made flesh to exist, as His mission has been successfully accomplished. He has created a better covenant, and is back at the right hand of God:

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

He's back at the right hand of God as the Word, as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Even you speak of the Word and Christ as the same being. Just with a different body. I don't understand why you are trying to suggest that these are two different beings, rather than one being in two different forms/bodies.
Because that is the only way God's Plan of Salvation can work?

God created covenants with mankind.

He created no covenants with beings with two different bodies.

There are natural bodied beings and spiritual bodied beings. There are no beings with natural/spiritual bodies.

There are celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. In other words, mortal and immortal do not mix.

Jesus had to be a man so that He could die. All men die. And He had to be a man to be a possible beneficiary under the covenant between God and man.

There would be no reason for Jesus to inherit everlasting life if He was God and already had everlasting life. Two everlasting lifes are equal to one everlasting life.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #484

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #483]

If you are indeed saying that Christ no longer exists, can you please answer the other questions that I asked?
And if Christ no longer exists (as you seem to be suggesting), then why did He identify as that person when He appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9)?

He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am [Jesus], whom you are persecuting,” he replied.


And again at the end of Revelation?

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Thank you.

**

For the rest of your post:
God created covenants with mankind.

He created no covenants with beings with two different bodies.
Mankind (who inherits eternal life) is going to have a different body, yes? The new body; the white robe? We will still be US - just in a different body. Right?

Well, Christ is still Himself - but in His glorified body (the body that He had before being made flesh to dwell among us for a little while).

There are natural bodied beings and spiritual bodied beings. There are no beings with natural/spiritual bodies.
Christ has had both. Mankind (those who receive eternal life and are 'changed' in a twinkling) will have had both. Right?
There are celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. In other words, mortal and immortal do not mix.
Yet the mortal will be clothed with immortality. Right?

Jesus had to be a man so that He could die. All men die. And He had to be a man to be a possible beneficiary under the covenant between God and man.
None of this means that Christ ceased to exist as an individual being... just as we will not cease to exist as an individual being. Right?
There would be no reason for Jesus to inherit everlasting life if He was God and already had everlasting life. Two everlasting lifes are equal to one everlasting life.
Christ is the Heir to all God's Kingdom, to everything in creation. But He is HIMSELF the Life, as well as the Resurrection. Regardless, none of this means that He ceased to exist as an individual being.

He is no longer a man, but He is still Himself.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ [Jesus],[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Philippians 2:5-8

Please note that the 'he', in verse 6, is referring to Christ. Though he (Christ) was in the form of God, He did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Peace again to you.
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #485

Post by myth-one.com »

tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am And if Christ no longer exists (as you seem to be suggesting), then why did He identify as that person when He appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9)?

He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am [Jesus], whom you are persecuting,” he replied.


And again at the end of Revelation?

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
The names Jesus and Word are used pretty much as interchangeable at this time. But they both refer to the spiritual bodied Word. There is no longer a human Jesus.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am For the rest of your post:
God created covenants with mankind.

He created no covenants with beings with two different bodies.
Mankind (who inherits eternal life) is going to have a different body, yes? The new body; the white robe? We will still be US - just in a different body. Right?
Absolutely. Believers born again of the Spirit will have incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am Well, Christ is still Himself - but in His glorified body (the body that He had before being made flesh to dwell among us for a little while).
Christ was born as a human! He never had a incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual body. That is what He came to earth to earn as His inheritance under the Old Testament Covenant by living a sinless human life.

And He did so. His name is in the Book of Life as an inheritor of everlasting spiritual life.

But He will not accept His inheritance, but offer it to those humans who believe in Him as their Savior -- as detailed under the New Testament Covenant. That was His human mission, He successfully completed that mission, and there is no reason for Him to continue life as a human.

When the covenant is probated at the Second Coming, believers will receive Jesus' inheritance of everlasting life which He earned under the original testament. The human Jesus will not receive it, because He gave it to us believers.

God is a Spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. So believers will be born of the Spirit as a spirit thanks to the gift from Jesus of His inheritance which He received as a human.
There are natural bodied beings and spiritual bodied beings. There are no beings with natural/spiritual bodies.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 amChrist has had both.
NO!

Christ was born a man. That is when His existence started. He was no longer the spiritual bodied immortal Word during His life time. He prayed to God, so He was not God. If He was still the immortal Word, then He could not die and fulfill His mission.

The Old Testament Covenant was between God and the nation of Israel. There are two parties to a will -- Benefactors and beneficiaries. The benefactor is the party which gives something to the beneficiary. The beneficiary is the receiving party of the inheritance.

Under the Old Testament, the benefactor was God and the beneficiaries were the humans known as the Nation of Israel.

Under that covenant, Jesus lived a sinless human life, died His appointed death as a human, and became an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant. He then gives His inheritance away to those who believe in Him as their Savior.

So the man Christ has not had both types of life. If Christ accepts His inheritance of everlasting life, then He cannot also offer it as a free gift to those who believe in Him as their Savior.

At this point, mankind cannot fathom the exact details of how any of this works -- as it involves the spiritual world. We just barely understand our physical world which we live in.

So we continue referring to Jesus as being in Heaven and returning. In actuality, we should be referring to the Word, or just God.

<====================================>
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 amMankind (those who receive eternal life and are 'changed' in a twinkling) will have had both. Right?
Right, but no one has every had both at the same time.
There are celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. In other words, mortal and immortal do not mix.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am Yet the mortal will be clothed with immortality. Right?
The mortal will be replaced with immortality. Nothing can be mortal and immortal.
Jesus had to be a man so that He could die. All men die. And He had to be a man to be a possible beneficiary under the covenant between God and man.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am None of this means that Christ ceased to exist as an individual being... just as we will not cease to exist as an individual being. Right?
Christ gave up His justly earned inheritance of everlasting life to those humans who believe in Him.
There are natural bodies and spiritual bodies. Jesus died as a natural bodied human. And He gave up the everlasting life reward He earned by living a sinless life to us believers. So where and what is Jesus currently?

Trying to figure that out can drive one crazy! I'm borderline crazy. The correct answer is that mankind can never understand how the Jesus/Word/God/man interface works. And that answer is supported in the scriptures:

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then, shall I know even as also I am known. (I Corinthians 13:9-12)
There would be no reason for Jesus to inherit everlasting life if He was God and already had everlasting life. Two everlasting lifes are equal to one everlasting life.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am Christ is the Heir to all God's Kingdom, to everything in creation. But He is HIMSELF the Life, as well as the Resurrection.
So when God dies, Christ inherits everything?

When one sees the word Christ or Jesus they are discussing a man.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 amRegardless, none of this means that He ceased to exist as an individual being.
For what purpose would one desire to live forever as a human?
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 amHe is no longer a man, but He is still Himself.
How do you separate the man from Himself?
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ [Jesus],[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Philippians 2:5-8

Please note that the 'he', in verse 6, is referring to Christ. Though he (Christ) was in the form of God, He did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Yes, He was in the form of the Word until He was separately made a man.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #486

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:48 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:45 am
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:30 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:17 am [Replying to myth-one.com in post #469]

I stand by everything I said, and I'll leave it to the folks who read it to decide for themselves what makes sense to them. You haven't gotten the point of anything I posted. You quote certain Bibles, yet ignore what I posted about OTHER Bible versions. What harmonizes with all other Scriptures?

We must agree to disagree.
Not a problem. That leaves you believing that a man which did not exist at the time creating everything which exists.
What are you talking about? Are you saying that Jesus didn't exist before he was born on Earth? The Bible says that he existed long before Earth was even formed. He said about himself: In prayer to his Father: "So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." (John 17:5) Moreover, "no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man." (John 3:13)
Jesus is recalling things prior to His becoming flesh as a man. The Word, from which He was "made flesh" lived from the beginning.

But Jesus' beginning as a man was 2022 years ago, and He lived as a man for about 33 years. Apparently He can recall memories about being the Word, but He has a different body type -- natural verses spiritual.

There is no longer any reason for Him to be a man.

Also, Christ cannot enter the Kingdom of God as flesh and blood:
I Corinthians 15:49-50 wrote:And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;...
I agree. But you said that Christ didn't exist before he became a man. That is demonstrably untrue. He existed as a mighty spirit in heaven with his Father, and then was appointed by his Father, not himself to come to Earth as a man......long after he created all things by means of his Father's power and direction.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #487

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 am But you said that Christ didn't exist before he became a man. That is demonstrably untrue. He existed as a mighty spirit in heaven with his Father, and then was appointed by his Father, not himself to come to Earth as a man......long after he created all things by means of his Father's power and direction.
When that mighty spirit in heaven came to earth as a man, Jesus was born.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #488

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:25 am
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am And if Christ no longer exists (as you seem to be suggesting), then why did He identify as that person when He appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus (Acts 9)?

He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am [Jesus], whom you are persecuting,” he replied.


And again at the end of Revelation?

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
The names Jesus and Word are used pretty much as interchangeable at this time. But they both refer to the spiritual bodied Word. There is no longer a human Jesus.
They are used interchangeably because this is the same person. I know you don't like to use the word 'person' , but I don't know what word you want to use instead that describes the same individual.

tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am For the rest of your post:
God created covenants with mankind.

He created no covenants with beings with two different bodies.
Mankind (who inherits eternal life) is going to have a different body, yes? The new body; the white robe? We will still be US - just in a different body. Right?
Absolutely. Believers born again of the Spirit will have incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies.
So you can understand being the same person even if in a different form/body. Why is it so hard for you to understand the same of Christ?
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am Well, Christ is still Himself - but in His glorified body (the body that He had before being made flesh to dwell among us for a little while).
Christ was born as a human! He never had a incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual body. That is what He came to earth to earn as His inheritance under the Old Testament Covenant by living a sinless human life.
I am going to refer you back to post 476 and 478. Please note that Hebrews clearly states that God made the universe through His Son (so, through Christ)... and 1 Corinth states clearly that all things came from the Father through Christ. Christ Jaheshua had to have been 'in the beginning' in order for the universe (and all things) to have come THROUGH Him.
And He did so. His name is in the Book of Life as an inheritor of everlasting spiritual life.
He is the One who writes or erases names from the book of LIFE. HE is Himself the LIFE.
But He will not accept His inheritance, but offer it to those humans who believe in Him as their Savior -- as detailed under the New Testament Covenant. That was His human mission, He successfully completed that mission, and there is no reason for Him to continue life as a human.

When the covenant is probated at the Second Coming, believers will receive Jesus' inheritance of everlasting life which He earned under the original testament. The human Jesus will not receive it, because He gave it to us believers.

God is a Spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. So believers will be born of the Spirit as a spirit thanks to the gift from Jesus of His inheritance which He received as a human.
Can you provide a scripture that states Christ does not accept His inheritance, or is this just your own thinking? Because I can find a verse that says we are CO-heirs with Christ. A co-heir means that (at least) two parties are sharing an inheritance. Christ SHARES His inheritance with us.

Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
There are natural bodied beings and spiritual bodied beings. There are no beings with natural/spiritual bodies.


tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 amChrist has had both.
NO!
Yes. This should not be too hard to understand because you accept that man will have had both. If man will have had both, why not Christ also?
Christ was born a man. That is when His existence started. He was no longer the spiritual bodied immortal Word during His life time. He prayed to God, so He was not God. If He was still the immortal Word, then He could not die and fulfill His mission.
The Word of God is not God (YHWH).

Christ is the Word of God.
The Old Testament Covenant was between God and the nation of Israel. There are two parties to a will -- Benefactors and beneficiaries. The benefactor is the party which gives something to the beneficiary. The beneficiary is the receiving party of the inheritance.

Under the Old Testament, the benefactor was God and the beneficiaries were the humans known as the Nation of Israel.
Yes...
Under that covenant, Jesus lived a sinless human life, died His appointed death as a human, and became an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant. He then gives His inheritance away to those who believe in Him as their Savior.
Christ is the heir of all things. Everything was made FOR Him.

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
So the man Christ has not had both types of life. If Christ accepts His inheritance of everlasting life, then He cannot also offer it as a free gift to those who believe in Him as their Savior.

Wouldn't Christ have to accept His inheritance (of all things) in order to be able to share it with others; otherwise how would it be HIS to share? Regardless, we are CO-HEIRS WITH Christ.

(Also, Christ IS the Life. He said that Himself. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." He is the One who gives LIFE, as has been given to Him by His Father.)

At this point, mankind cannot fathom the exact details of how any of this works -- as it involves the spiritual world. We just barely understand our physical world which we live in.

So we continue referring to Jesus as being in Heaven and returning. In actuality, we should be referring to the Word, or just God.
Is that your own thing? Because Christ identifies HIMSELF by His name in Revelation, more than once. Don't you think He would know if we should not be referring to Him by His name?

tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 amMankind (those who receive eternal life and are 'changed' in a twinkling) will have had both. Right?
Right, but no one has every had both at the same time.
The verse reads:

The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us for a while.

The verse does not read:

Part of the Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us for a while.
There are celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. In other words, mortal and immortal do not mix.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am Yet the mortal will be clothed with immortality. Right?
The mortal will be replaced with immortality. Nothing can be mortal and immortal.
I never claimed otherwise.
Jesus had to be a man so that He could die. All men die. And He had to be a man to be a possible beneficiary under the covenant between God and man.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am None of this means that Christ ceased to exist as an individual being... just as we will not cease to exist as an individual being. Right?
Christ gave up His justly earned inheritance of everlasting life to those humans who believe in Him.
Co-heirs WITH Christ.

Christ did not have to give His inheritance up in order to share it with others.
There are natural bodies and spiritual bodies. Jesus died as a natural bodied human. And He gave up the everlasting life reward He earned by living a sinless life to us believers. So where and what is Jesus currently?

Trying to figure that out can drive one crazy!
That's because you're making it SO MUCH more complicated than it is, myth-one!

He is the same person. The Word of God, Christ Jaheshua, the Life, the Light, the Truth - the one THROUGH whom God made the universe.

No one in what is written - not even Christ - talks as you do about Christ and the Word being separate persons. Because Christ IS the Word of God. No one ever states that Christ ceased to exist, either, because He did not cease to exist. We have examples of Him speaking as Christ (Jaheshua), after His death and resurrection and ascension.

The correct answer is that mankind can never understand how the Jesus/Word/God/man interface works.
One can understand, myth-one... by turning to Christ, asking Him, letting Him teach us what is true. That might be hard to do if someone doesn't think He exists anymore though, but of course He exists!
And that answer is supported in the scriptures:

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then, shall I know even as also I am known. (I Corinthians 13:9-12)
Yes, we see in part, but that is all the more reason not to make things up ourselves, based on our own understanding (or lack thereof).

There would be no reason for Jesus to inherit everlasting life if He was God and already had everlasting life. Two everlasting lifes are equal to one everlasting life.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am Christ is the Heir to all God's Kingdom, to everything in creation. But He is HIMSELF the Life, as well as the Resurrection.
So when God dies, Christ inherits everything?
God does not die (cannot die, or we would all cease to exist). But He made everything FOR His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things.

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. Colossians 1:16

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. Hebrews 1:2

And in Mark 12, the parable of the tenants and vineyard, depicts Christ as the heir.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 amRegardless, none of this means that He ceased to exist as an individual being.
For what purpose would one desire to live forever as a human?
This does not address the point: Christ did not cease to exist as an individual being.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 amHe is no longer a man, but He is still Himself.
How do you separate the man from Himself?
By understanding that we are more than just this flesh and blood. We are the spirit INSIDE this vessel.

You seem to be able to understand this when speaking about mankind, but you stop understanding it when speaking about Christ. Christ returned to the glorified body that He had at the beginning. But He Himself - the person/spirit He is - still exists.

tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ [Jesus],[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Philippians 2:5-8

Please note that the 'he', in verse 6, is referring to Christ. Though he (Christ) was in the form of God, He did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Yes, He was in the form of the Word until He was separately made a man.
You're saying yes, but you're changing something. seem to be adding your own spin.

He was in the form of God, and then He emptied Himself to take the form of a servant, made in the likeness of man.





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #489

Post by myth-one.com »

A "person" is a human being. Every being in the Kingdom of God is a spiritual bodied being -- not a man, woman, or person.

Believers born again of the Spirit will have incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies.

Humans are persons. God and the angels are spirits. The new bodies that those humans born again of the Spirit will have are spiritual bodies. They will no longer be persons but angels.

Christ was born as a human! He never had a incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual body. That is what He came to earth to earn as His inheritance under the Old Testament Covenant by living a sinless human life. But He will not accept His inheritance, but offer it to those humans who believe in Him as their Savior -- as detailed under the New Testament Covenant. That was His human mission, He successfully completed that mission, and there is no reason for Him to continue life as a human.

When the covenant is probated at the Second Coming, believers will receive Jesus' inheritance of everlasting life which He earned under the original testament. The human Jesus will not receive it, because He gave it to us believers.
Tam wrote:Can you provide a scripture that states Christ does not accept His inheritance?
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Christ was born a man. That is when His existence started. He was no longer the spiritual bodied immortal Word during His life time. He prayed to God, so He was not God. If He was still the immortal Word, then He could not die and fulfill His mission.

The Old Testament Covenant was between God and the nation of Israel. There are two parties to a will -- Benefactors and beneficiaries. The benefactor is the party which gives something to the beneficiary. The beneficiary is the receiving party of the inheritance. Under the Old Testament, the benefactor was God and the beneficiaries were the humans known as the Nation of Israel. Under that covenant, Jesus lived a sinless human life, died His appointed death as a human, and became an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant. He then gives His inheritance away to those who believe in Him as their Savior.

If Christ accepts His inheritance of everlasting life, then He cannot also offer it as a free gift to those who believe in Him as their Savior.

There are celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. In other words, mortal and immortal do not mix.
tam wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:42 am Yet the mortal will be clothed with immortality. Right?
No, the mortal will be replaced with immortality. Nothing can be mortal and immortal.
I never claimed otherwise.
Yes you did: "Yet the mortal will be clothed with immortality."

Jesus had to be a man so that He could die. All men die. And He had to be a man to be a possible beneficiary under the covenant between God and man.
tam wrote:None of this means that Christ ceased to exist as an individual being... just as we will not cease to exist as an individual being. Right?
Wrong! All human persons perish.
Tam wrote:Christ did not have to give His inheritance up in order to share it with others.
Once a mortal being takes on immortality, it can never be given up -- as it lasts forever. So if Jesus accepted His inheritance of everlasting life, He could not also gift it to others.

There are natural bodies and spiritual bodies. Jesus died as a natural bodied human. And He gave up the everlasting life reward He earned by living a sinless life to us believers. So where and what is Jesus currently?
Tam wrote:He is the same person.
He is a 2022 year old man?
Tam wrote:We are the spirit INSIDE this vessel.
Do you have a spiritual body like God?
Tam wrote:You seem to be able to understand this when speaking about mankind, but you stop understanding it when speaking about Christ. Christ returned to the glorified body that He had at the beginning.
That glorified body is the Word -- which never stopped existing.
Tam wrote:But He Himself - the person/spirit He is - still exists.
The human person no longer exists. The spirit never stopped existing. It was in the Word from the beginning.

The Word and the man Jesus did everything God their Father asked them to do!

Jesus provided a path for lowly mankind to gain everlasting life.

Call Him Jesus, Christ, Lord, the Word, or whatever.

But why can't you allow Him to return to being God the Word sitting at the right hand of God?

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #490

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:17 pm A "person" is a human being. Every being in the Kingdom of God is a spiritual bodied being -- not a man, woman, or person.
Then feel free to insert 'being' in place of 'person'. The point will be the same. You have already admitted that we will still be OURSELVES, in the Kingdom, just in a new body. Christ is still HIMSELF as well.
Believers born again of the Spirit will have incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies.

Humans are persons. God and the angels are spirits. The new bodies that those humans born again of the Spirit will have are spiritual bodies. They will no longer be persons but angels.

Christ said that we will be LIKE the angels, not that we will become angels. If not all natural bodied beings are the same 'species', why would all spiritual bodied beings need to be the same 'species'?


But this may be beside the point. Simply insert 'being' instead of 'person', and the point is the same.


Christ was born as a human! He never had a incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual body. That is what He came to earth to earn as His inheritance under the Old Testament Covenant by living a sinless human life.
That is not correct. Christ came to give His life as a ransom for many, as well as to bear witness to God (among other things). He did not come so that He would inherit a spirit body.
But He will not accept His inheritance, but offer it to those humans who believe in Him as their Savior -- as detailed under the New Testament Covenant. That was His human mission, He successfully completed that mission, and there is no reason for Him to continue life as a human.
1 - No one is claiming that He continued His life as a human, but rather as the Spirit - but He is still Himself, just as we will still be ourselves.

2 - Christ SHARES His inheritance... He does not need to give it up. We are - as stated previously - co-heirs WITH Christ. Not sole-heirs without Christ.
Tam wrote:Can you provide a scripture that states Christ does not accept His inheritance?
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Christ was born a man.
That verse does not state that Christ does not accept His inheritance. Nothing in that verse even suggests Christ does not accept His inheritance.
If Christ accepts His inheritance of everlasting life, then He cannot also offer it as a free gift to those who believe in Him as their Savior.
Why not, myth-one... why would Christ not be able to share His inheritance (whatever it might be) with His bride, with His brothers/sisters? Husbands share their inheritances with their wives (and vice versa) all the time.
tam wrote:None of this means that Christ ceased to exist as an individual being... just as we will not cease to exist as an individual being. Right?
Wrong! All human persons perish.
I said 'being'.

And earlier you agreed that we would still be ourselves:
Tam said: Mankind (who inherits eternal life) is going to have a different body, yes? The new body; the white robe? We will still be US - just in a different body. Right?

Myth-one said: Absolutely. Believers born again of the Spirit will have incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies.

So you have a conflict here. You understand that we will still be ourselves (even though we are changed into the new body), but for some reason you deny that Christ can still be HIMSELF, even though He has returned to His glorified body.
Tam wrote:Christ did not have to give His inheritance up in order to share it with others.
Once a mortal being takes on immortality, it can never be given up -- as it lasts forever. So if Jesus accepted His inheritance of everlasting life, He could not also gift it to others.
You seem to be mixing some things up.

His inheritance is not just eternal life - of course He has eternal life - He IS the LIFE (including being the Tree of Life), and it is from Him we must drink (and eat) in order to have life in us. He does not have to give UP eternal life, in order to GIVE life to whomever He chooses. But His inheritance is all creation, and He has been given all authority in heaven and on earth. He shares His reign for (at least) a thousand years with His Bride.

Christ said that He has life in Himself, just as the Father has life in Himself. That He can give life to whomever He pleases, just as the Father can do:

Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself. John 5:26

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. John 5:21

Tam wrote:He is the same person.
He is a 2022 year old man?
Insert 'being' for the word 'person'. He is the same being He has always been, from the beginning with His God and Father, the One through whom God made the universe.
Tam wrote:We are the spirit INSIDE this vessel.
Do you have a spiritual body like God?
I was not talking about the body, but about the person, the being, who I am, on the inside (what makes me, me... thoughts, conscience, personality, emotions, etc.)
Tam wrote:You seem to be able to understand this when speaking about mankind, but you stop understanding it when speaking about Christ. Christ returned to the glorified body that He had at the beginning.
That glorified body is the Word -- which never stopped existing.
Of course the Word never ceased existing... the Word became FLESH and dwelt among us for a while. The Word is Christ.
Tam wrote:But He Himself - the person/spirit He is - still exists.
The human person no longer exists. The spirit never stopped existing. It was in the Word from the beginning.

The Word and the man Jesus did everything God their Father asked them to do!

Jesus provided a path for lowly mankind to gain everlasting life.

Call Him Jesus, Christ, Lord, the Word, or whatever.

But why can't you allow Him to return to being God the Word sitting at the right hand of God?
Christ is the Word, and He is at the right hand of God.

But Christ is not God (the MOST Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH). Christ is the SON of God, the Word of God, the Chosen One of JAH (Messiah), and His name is Jaheshua.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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