Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

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alwayson
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Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

Post #1

Post by alwayson »

Why does Columbia PhD in Ancient History, Richard Carrier, think that Jesus never existed?

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Re: Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

Post #51

Post by TRANSPONDER »

neverknewyou wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:38 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #40]

The gospels are a theology made up of a hybrid of Jewish scripture and Greek mythology. Paul and the other epistle writers don't know one single thing about the gospel story, nothing about a Jesus from Nazareth, nor Mary, Joseph, Pilate, Galilee, none of that. Mark got the names of Peter, John and James from Paul's writings and recast them as disciples of Jesus. He portrays them as being daft and not understanding Jesus's message.
Broadly, yes. We may differ on details (Present Mark is not the original) but we are on the same page - the Christians who wrote the Jesus story first off knew little of Paul, but the teachings (Jewish law was obsolete, Jesus has risen from death and believing that saved you from....whatever was going to happen) had come down to them through the Churches that Paul started.

My argument is:

(a) is there a real Jesus behind all this, and if so what did he do?

(b) that the gospels as they now appear can't be relied on as true, even if there is a true basis.

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Re: Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

Post #52

Post by neverknewyou »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #51]

a) A real Jesus is not necessary to explain Christian origins. Paul is the only Christian from the first century that we know anything about.

b) The gospels are a theology so whether the theology is true or not is a matter of opinion.

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Re: Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

Post #53

Post by The Nice Centurion »

alwayson wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:40 pm
acehighinfinity wrote:
alwayson wrote: [Replying to post 7 by acehighinfinity]

No it applies to everyone
OK, refer to post 5.

Why should it be a surprise that an Atheist would think Jesus never existed? Come on now this is a nobrainier!
Because atheists in general are smarter according to multiple studies
I want to know if it is possible that Jesus, if he existed, was an atheist?

Born again evangelicals wouldnt like to hear that, for sure!
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Re: Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

Post #54

Post by neverknewyou »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:48 pm
alwayson wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:40 pm
acehighinfinity wrote:
alwayson wrote: [Replying to post 7 by acehighinfinity]

No it applies to everyone
OK, refer to post 5.

Why should it be a surprise that an Atheist would think Jesus never existed? Come on now this is a nobrainier!
Because atheists in general are smarter according to multiple studies
I want to know if it is possible that Jesus, if he existed, was an atheist?

Born again evangelicals wouldnt like to hear that, for sure!
There is a list of Jesus sayings, from Q maybe, that are of a secular Greek sage type, as well as a list of Hebrew that are religious.

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Re: Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

Post #55

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:48 pm
alwayson wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:40 pm
acehighinfinity wrote:
alwayson wrote: [Replying to post 7 by acehighinfinity]

No it applies to everyone
OK, refer to post 5.

Why should it be a surprise that an Atheist would think Jesus never existed? Come on now this is a nobrainier!
Because atheists in general are smarter according to multiple studies
I want to know if it is possible that Jesus, if he existed, was an atheist?

Born again evangelicals wouldnt like to hear that, for sure!
Under the circumstances, I find it impossible to suggest that Jesus (whether Messiah, God incarnate or reforming Pharisee) was an atheist. Like the Christian apologists say, one can never be 100% sure but, as the atheists say, such a remote possibility isn't worth further discussion.

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Re: Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

Post #56

Post by Willum »

Perhaps because although many people named "Joshua" (cum Jesus) existed, none can be shown to have been god-human hybrids that performed miracles, outside a book of fairytales.

Obviously he doesn't claim many people named Jesus never existed, he simply disputes the magic.

He is simply stating he, like many, is not a fool, though many are.

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Re: Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

Post #57

Post by The Nice Centurion »

[Replying to alwayson in post #1]
FOR THE RECORD:
Richard Carrier doesnt think that Jesus didnt exist.
He never stated the like.
In his latest 3 books he gives Jesus an 1 in 3 chance to have existed.

(It isnt very well speaking for peoples knowledge, that it took 57 posts for someone to clarify that.)
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"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

Post #58

Post by TRANSPONDER »

neverknewyou wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:17 am [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #51]

a) A real Jesus is not necessary to explain Christian origins. Paul is the only Christian from the first century that we know anything about.

b) The gospels are a theology so whether the theology is true or not is a matter of opinion.
Ok. And yes, I can't rule out a Christianity made up out of Myth. I have said that the lack of any historical support bothers me. But I can't dismiss the principle of embarrassment A made up Jesus would be a Judean rather than a Galilean, and would have been done to death by the Jews not by the Romans. Why invent a story that they immediately have to try to cover up? I would still bet on an original story the Christians didn't actually like and had to cover up. That's all I'm saying about my 2 cents worth.

Apart from the pile of other stuff I have ready to say later on. :)

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Re: Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

Post #59

Post by christian001 »

The historicity of Jesus can be proven even from non-biblical sources https://www.explainchristianity.com/top ... cal-jesus/

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Re: Why Does Richard Carrier think that Jesus never existed?

Post #60

Post by TRANSPONDER »

christian001 wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:58 am The historicity of Jesus can be proven even from non-biblical sources https://www.explainchristianity.com/top ... cal-jesus/
This video does actually make the best case one can for a historical Jesus. But of course the real argument is not about an actual Jesus but about what this Jesus supposedly did and said.

However let's look at the argument.

First he makes some preliminaries. After a strawman misrepresentation of atheist apologists losing an argument and then claiming that Jesus never lived, there is Pagan mythology. Now, it is true that misguided claims that the Christ tale borrows from Mithras and Horus (coming from an old book) do the atheist cause no good. But I am sure that the Mother and child icon is a pinch from Horus and Isis. But that isn't the matter of historicity.

And, yes, documents have been lost, but they don't help his case. Such lost documents may have damaged the Christian claim as much as confirm it. And historians know that old documents may be dodgy and they try to make allowances for that, but have to assess what they have . I don't know what help that is to his case, it would suggest being suspicious about such old sources.

And appeal to Jesus being not newsworthy. You'd think that such a celebrated crowd puller would get a mention, but the absence in Philo particularly is bothersome to me who does subscribe to an actual Jesus.

And Paul is referenced and yes, I consider him compelling support for a Jesus, but it is NOT the Jesus of Christianity, nor are the disciples the persons portrayed in the Gospels. Those, rather act as representing the needs of the Christian story.

Finally, 'mentioned in histories' is not the same as 'attested by the histories'.

So no 1. Tacitus. In my view the best source outside the Bible for 'Christ'. But while he reports that 'Christ' was crucified under Pilate, this is not what he knows, but what the Christians claim. Note that he calls Pilate a procurator. In fact (as the Pilate stone attests) he was a Prefect. Tacitus assumes that he was a Procurator as the governors of Judea were in his day.
2. Pliny. Refers to how to treat Christians but is not historical evidence for Jesus.
3 Josephus. He at least accepts (as most do) that Some of the Flavian testament has to be fake. So why not all of it? It is parenthetical and forms no part of the narrative. It looks like a Christian passage (reminding one of Luke 24.19 ) and could have been slotted in where Josephus mentions Pilate. The Arabs did not believe the Christian claims about Jesus so that may be why they omitted those parts.
4 Babylonian Talmud. I'm surprised he used this one. Jesus is stoned and hanged, and this account is either abusive and they had no idea of the story or it isn't the same Jesus at all
5. Lucian. Interesting, the light he sheds on early Christian groups, And it only reports their beliefs as well as commenting on their gullibility.,

So really, Tacitus and Paul (at least) do make a case for an actual Jesus (as well as me, as i argue that an invented Jesus would have been a Judean and stoned, not a Galilean crucified) but the rest is no historical support, no more than the others like Suetonius, Bar Serapeon and Phlegon.

At the end of the day, I reckon the evidence is for a Jesus, but not a Jesus as depicted in the gospels. And I think that, rather than denying that there was a Jesus at all, is the actual 'atheist' case.

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