Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

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Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

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Post by oldbadger »

I propose that the laws of Moses (or the Old Testament if you prefer), all 613 of them were the most amazing piece of legislation for the purpose of producing a safe, secure, healthy, fast growing, cohesive and successful people...... back in those days.

I would like to show a law each day that might help to support my claim, and if any members might like to post up laws for discussion as well then that would be great. Many of those laws still exist in the local and national laws where I live.

My offer for today is clear guidance to 'keep these laws and prosper or ignore them and fail those who were there before.'

LEVITCUS {20:22} Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. {20:23} And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. {20:24} But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I [am] the LORD your God, which have separated you from [other] people.
Last edited by oldbadger on Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

Post #11

Post by oldbadger »

Miles wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:50 pm
Sorry, but deleting a term because you don't like it simply doesn't work. How about we just delete "Virgin" from Matthew and Luke?
I didn't delete 'abomination', I reduced it's impact because about a score of other sins were titled thus, and they included foods, types of cheating, etc..... so the word doesn't quite have the 'taboo' impact that some might wish for.
Question:- Do you break any of the laws of Moses which describe actions as 'abominations?' That is, if you actually know the laws at all.


I was actually prepared to seriously answer you, but after seeing the three Reason you gave here,
Have a good day
Reason 3 is really important.......... a man had to wed a woman and have lots of children for the nation to grow fast. A large population of healthy, strong people is more secure.......

Men wedding men, although a closed couple, cannot achieve or add to a larger population.

And if you had been serious at all you might have checked that you 'experts' had shown the correct verses for each law.
You can't answer so you seem to want to 'flounce' off...yes?

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Re: Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

Post #12

Post by oldbadger »

Miles wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:53 am
Question: How do the following laws produce a safe, secure, healthy, fast growing, cohesive and successful people...... back in those days


51. Not to bow down on smooth stone—Leviticus 26:1

64. Not to attempt to engage the dead in conversation—Deuteronomy 18:11

68. Men must not shave the hair off the sides of their head—Leviticus 19:27

71. Women must not wear men's clothing—Deuteronomy 22:5

72. Not to tattoo the skin—Leviticus 19:28

86. To circumcise all males on the eighth day after their birth—Leviticus 12:3

90. Not to walk more than 2000 cubits outside the city boundary on Shabbat—Exodus 16:29

95. Not to eat or drink on Yom Kippur—Leviticus 23:29

114. To eat Matzah on the first night of Passover—Exodus 12:18

116. To hear the Shofar on the first day of Tishrei (Rosh Hashanah)--Numbers 29:1

132. The rapist must marry the maiden (if she chooses)--Deuteronomy 22:29

157. Not to have homosexual sexual relations—Leviticus 18:22

185. Not to eat non-kosher maggots—Leviticus 11:44

187. Not to eat creatures that live in water other than fish—Leviticus 11:43

196. Not to cook meat and milk together—Exodus 34:26

204. To ritually slaughter an animal before eating it—Deuteronomy 12:21

217. The Nazir must let his hair grow—Numbers 6:5

224. He must not be under the same roof as a corpse—Numbers 6:6

236. Not to crossbreed animals—Leviticus 19:19

254. Not to improperly preface one tithe to the next, but separate them in their proper order—Exodus 22:28

278. To break the neck of the donkey if the owner does not intend to redeem it—Exodus 13:13
Right....today's law, picked at random from above...........
------------------------------------------
95. Not to eat or drink on Yom Kippur—Leviticus 23:29

You've done it again, your experts have not been able to select the correct verse and you didn't take the trouble to check your work. This is Lev 23:29 {23:29} For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
--------------------------------------------

So I'll select another at random because I'm not bothering to explain laws that you haven't taken any care of yourself. Here we go:-

68. Men must not shave the hair off the sides of their head—Leviticus 19:27

Again, your experts have not been accurate! Lev 19:27 refers to beards as well as hair.
Leviticus:- {19:27} Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Brilliant! D'you know, I used to travel through parts of North London where strong communities of Jews lived, and it was possible to identify them so quickly, so easily, from their hair-cuts and beards.
1. Does anybody think that the surrounding nations/people grew their hair and beards exactly like the Israelites did? I don't.
2. So..... if an outsider, any outsider, even one, managed to stray in among a community of Israelites, do you think they would be noticed quickly, easily, exactly? I do!

Brilliant! Safety, Security, Cohesion...... increased.
Easy.

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Re: Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

Post #13

Post by oldbadger »

Miles wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:53 am
Question: How do the following laws produce a safe, secure, healthy, fast growing, cohesive and successful people...... back in those days?

51. Not to bow down on smooth stone—Leviticus 26:1
Previously I have selected your choice of laws at random, but from now on I'll just take them straight from your list.

Leviticus 26:1.....

Your experts are incompetent, that's easy to demonstrate because here is Leviticus 26:1 ...complete:-

{26:1} Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.

And all of a sudden this law makes perfect sense....and so your experts have taken a clear law which forbids any fragmenting of the people's focus in to some weirdness. Cohesion of the people was crucial, back then.

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Re: Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

Post #14

Post by oldbadger »

Miles wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:53 am
Question: How do the following laws produce a safe, secure, healthy, fast growing, cohesive and successful people...... back in those days?
Let's have look at two more of your verses .........
64. Not to attempt to engage the dead in conversation—Deuteronomy 18:11
Again, your experts have not done this law much justice. Let's have a look at it all...
Deuteronomy: {18:11} Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. {18:12} For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

I get the impression that you might have strong feelings about abominations, Miles. Back then if people started to listen to seers and wizards etc then they might take notice of new ideas, rules, taboos etc when in fact they needed to stick rigidly to the legislation which could keep them more safe, secure, healthy, successful etc.
71. Women must not wear men's clothing—Deuteronomy 22:5
Deuteronomy {22:5} The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Gender distinction, seen as necessary back then for so many reasons. This was a rigid rule in my lifetime, even with hair partings, clothes, games, jobs.....everything. Again, a man needed to marry and stay in a closed couple for children and health, and if strict clothing rules could help keep female gender separate then this law was sense, back then. Women in groups tended to menstruate in harmony and go to the gender separation tent together.....

Interestingly, gender clothing is still completely separated among our news readers and other services...... but slowly this is dying out now.

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Re: Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

Post #15

Post by oldbadger »

Miles wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:53 am Question: How do the following laws produce a safe, secure, healthy, fast growing, cohesive and successful people...... back in those days?
Moving forward............
Not to tattoo the skin—Leviticus 19:28
Let's see the real law, eh?
Leviticus {19:28} Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I [am] the LORD.

Thousands of years ago in a hot land, would any here cut in to themselves for any reason? Health reason.
I expect that most outsiders had marks printed over them. So if Israelites had perfectly clean skin then identification would be sure and fast. Security/Safety.
86. To circumcise all males on the eighth day after their birth—Leviticus 12:3
The ultimate identification. Security, Cohesion.

Easy.

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Re: Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

Post #16

Post by oldbadger »

Miles wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:53 am
Question: How do the following laws produce a safe, secure, healthy, fast growing, cohesive and successful people...... back in those days?


90. Not to walk more than 2000 cubits outside the city boundary on Shabbat—Exodus 16:29
Moving on......... Exodus 16:29 eh?
Exodus {16:29} See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Well, that's the real verse, above. Imagine a whole nation that stops, rests, all together, on particular days. Where I live the shadow of this ancient law still exists. A fixed law that insists that everybody will rest and recuperate every 7th day....... not so bad if hard nosed rulers and bosses would have liked to push their employees and slaves every minute.

From now on let's look at some more interesting laws...... with their real verses to show these?
I'll start tomorrow.

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Re: Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

Post #17

Post by oldbadger »

Offering for today:-
Deuteronomy {15:7} If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother: {15:8} But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, [in that] which he wanteth.

The Laws of Moses contain many 'poor laws' which required the nation to look after everybody whether physically or neurologically disabled in any way. Ability was commanded to take care of disability, and the above is just one of those. It's a great pity that modern governments do not focus more closely upon disability in all it's forms.

I think I'll choose a poor law each day until they run out. :)

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Re: Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

Post #18

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to oldbadger in post #17]

What you've yet to do is support this claim:

"I propose that the laws of Moses (or the Old Testament if you prefer), all 613 of them were the most amazing piece of legislation for the purpose of producing a safe, secure, healthy, fast growing, cohesive and successful people...... back in those days."

To claim they are the "most amazing piece of legislation" etc. etc., you'd need to present the legislation of every other society of that time and demonstrate why they are inferior. I've yet to see you present any other legislation you consider inferior. And of course, if you claim they all are inferior you'd have to provide evidence for why each and every one is inferior. Should we expect this to take place?


Tcg
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Re: Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

Post #19

Post by oldbadger »

Tcg wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:20 am
What you've yet to do is support this claim:

"I propose that the laws of Moses (or the Old Testament if you prefer), all 613 of them were the most amazing piece of legislation for the purpose of producing a safe, secure, healthy, fast growing, cohesive and successful people...... back in those days."

To claim they are the "most amazing piece of legislation" etc. etc., you'd need to present the legislation of every other society of that time and demonstrate why they are inferior. I've yet to see you present any other legislation you consider inferior. And of course, if you claim they all are inferior you'd have to provide evidence for why each and every one is inferior. Should we expect this to take place?

Tcg
Firstly, a proposal is not the same as a claim, yes? It's a much softer approach to a debate, offering a more open reception to other opinions.

So for anybody to present any opposing opinions it would be for them to offer examples of anything better from that time, imo.

But I'll try to respond in some way to your post by introducing 'The Law Code of Hammurabi' for comparison. I don't know when this was written, but earlier than the laws of Moses, and it doesn't/can't come close to the OT laws. I have no link for these 272 laws but if anybody wants to read them then they can, by entering that title in to their IT search engine.

This title with first paragraph should find the whole document:-
What follows is the L. W. king translation (1915).
The Law Code of Hammurabi
Proem:
When Anu2 the Sublime, King of the Anunaki,3 and Bel,4 the lord of Heaven and earth, who decreed the fate of the land, assigned to Marduk, the over-ruling son of Ea, God of righteousness, dominion over earthly man, and made him great among the Igigi, they called Babylon by his illustrious name, made it great on earth, and founded an everlasting kingdom in it, whose foundations are laid so solidly as those of heaven and earth; then Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind.

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Re: Are the Laws of Moses amazing legislation for that time?

Post #20

Post by oldbadger »

Offering for today...... another of the poor laws from the laws of Moses.

Recently some of our large food markets have picked up on the essence of the following laws, and instead of trashing and destroying products that have neared and reached their 'sell-by' dates (which they previously did) they now offer these to charities for free distribution to needy households.

If commerce, industry, retail and travel companies all took 'the essence of' these laws in to consideration, then that would be an excellent providence for the needy.

Leviticus {19:9} And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

Leviticus {19:10} And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather [every] grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I [am] the LORD your God.

Deut {24:19} When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

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