I have noticed that sometimes people with a scientific mind, people who have studied a lot and know a lot of information about different sciences, do not notice simple things that do not escape the attention of ordinary people, even if they have studied less or almost nothing.
For example, the fact that the animals that evolutionists call "lower" in the evolutionary scale still live alongside humans, and that others supposedly fitter, because they are located in a higher position in the evolutionary line of man, no longer exist.
Evolutionary theory holds that as animals progressed up the evolutionary scale, they became more capable of surviving. Why, then, is the “inferior” ape family still in existence, but not a single one of the presumed intermediate forms, which were supposed to be more advanced in evolution? Today we see chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans, but no “ape-men.” Does it seem likely that every one of the more recent and supposedly more advanced “links” between apelike creatures and modern man should have become extinct, but not the lower apes? https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101985017
To what extent do you think the "wisdom" of this system of things can cloud a person's mind?
Scientific thinking and common sense
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Re: Scientific thinking and common sense
Post #101And I'm sure there are no shortage of Christians who see you in a similar way, which is kinda the point.Inquirer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:07 pm I do not belong to "a church", I do not abide by a "statement of beliefs", I do not espouse my beliefs unless asked, I do not proselytize, I do not judge others' beliefs, I do not attend "services". The apostles did not agree eye to eye, so why expect the rest of us to?
Most modern Christian denominations are just like the Pharisees, they burden their members with rules, regulations, schedules and so on.
A good example of Christian mindset is the Quakers.
But, this is not a theological thread, so I won't dwell any further on this here.
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Re: Scientific thinking and common sense
Post #102It amuses me that folks pretend they know the mind of a god they can't show exists to even have him one.Inquirer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:40 pmBe patient, God will reveal himself to you in his own way in his own time.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:15 pmYou can't even show your favored god exists, much less could be understood.
"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" is a poor means of debate.
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Re: Scientific thinking and common sense
Post #103Oh man, I can't tell you how many times I've heard that sort of thing. "Well you can just take it up with God after you die!" I always took that as a tacit admission that they had no answer to what I was posing.Tcg wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:31 pm This reminds me of a time many years ago when I asked a fellow believer about a specific issue I had with the story of the Great Flood. The man listened politely, but when I was finished explaining it, he simply replied, "You can ask God about it when we get to heaven."
That's analytical thinking (thinking in a logical, step-wise manner), something that's a lot rarer than many folks (myself included) realize.He didn't realize that I was wondering if there were any reason to accept the Bible's claims about God. If there weren't, there'd be no reason to expect I'd be asking any questions of God at least not the flood sending one.
Likely because they're more prone to intuitive thinking, where things are evaluated primarily by how they make you feel. So when people like you (and me) try and apply analytical thinking to religion, we instantly see it doesn't make sense, which becomes a bit of a deal breaker. But when intuitive thinkers apply their way of thinking to religion, whether or not it makes sense is secondary or even irrelevant.As I've looked back on that conversation and others like it, it seems to me that it's advice on how to maintain faith and obviously not a path to finding truth. Kinda like, oh don't worry about those troubling issues that have no resolution, just keep your eyes on heaven. I just couldn't do that. I couldn't believe what didn't make sense. Plenty of people are though. Very odd.
When I was a kid, I sincerely tried to pray about a problem I was having. I tried for several nights. Eventually, after getting absolutely nothing out of it I said out loud, "This is pointless. I'm just talking to a wall. If things are gonna change, I have to do it myself."ETA: Oh, and oddly enough, God never gave me any understanding that resolved the issue I had with the tale of the Ark. I must have prayed wrong or something.
I still remember that day as the moment when I completely gave up on Christianity and religion in general. I've never prayed since.
Of course, I've had plenty of Christians tell me what you describe....I must have not been sincere, I did it wrong, "figure it out yourself" was God's answer, etc. But taking this back to earlier today, I see those as nothing more than coping mechanisms, invoked to deal with an inconvenient truth....someone gave Christian prayer a genuine try and it didn't work.
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Re: Scientific thinking and common sense
Post #104You mean these Quakers?
Yes, I agree.
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Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: Scientific thinking and common sense
Post #105On the other hand you also stated:
So which is it? There are many atheists who engaged in all that effort and research, for decades in some cases, reaching the opposite conclusion that they were working towards. Matt Dillahunty was even ready to become an ordained minister. So what happened? God withdrew his understanding? Or did he approach it with a genuinely open mind whereupon, after close scrutiny, the whole shebang just fell apart at the seams.Unless one puts in the work, the study, the effort and research one will not be able to make sense of it and could easily make the error of describing this as "nonsensical" and "badly written", do you see what I mean?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Scientific thinking and common sense
Post #106And if you die before he gets around to revealing himself to you, he will just punish you for eternity.Inquirer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:40 pmBe patient, God will reveal himself to you in his own way in his own time.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:15 pmYou can't even show your favored god exists, much less could be understood.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Scientific thinking and common sense
Post #107Common sense and scientific thinking tells us that your previous response regarding revealed spiritual knowledge was nothing more than preaching.Inquirer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:42 pmThis isn't really a theology thread, go and ask the question in one of the other forum areas, you'll get plenty of helpful replies.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:18 pmSo God reveals these things through people who then write the revelations into scripture, but the only way anyone can actually understand any of it is if the same God provides a subsequent revelation, on an individual basis.Inquirer wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:06 pm Revealed spiritual knowledge, for example:
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.and this, even the Jews of the day, those who claimed to understand God, those who studied the scripture routinely - did not understand:The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Understanding includes the acknowledgement to one's self that one has been in error, that one has mis-understood, the beginning of understanding is to grasp that one has misunderstood, until that time one is lost, wandering in a fog and unaware of it.Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Is that what you're describing?
So what do you say to folks who specifically asked God to help them understand, but got nothing?The obvious point is, it didn't help you, people can't help you, all understanding comes from God.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Scientific thinking and common sense
Post #108A pity then that so many originals just up and disappeared. Preservation indeed. Oh, well, it was only the word of God so what did that matter.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Scientific thinking and common sense
Post #109Mandatory response...
See Dewberry Baptist Church #1.
They split up cause one bunch got em revealed the one understanding, but the other bunch got them a different'n.
A: "God knows all that'll happen."
B: "No he don't."
A: "Yes he does."
B: Flings a piece of chicken. "Did he know that was gonna happen?"
lomfpoc
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Re: Scientific thinking and common sense
Post #110Well like they always say, never discuss politics and religion or eat biscuits and chicken at the same time. Nothing good can come from it. Now biscuits with bacon gravy? No one's going to split a church over that... unless some add pepper.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:38 pmMandatory response...
See Dewberry Baptist Church #1.
They split up cause one bunch got em revealed the one understanding, but the other bunch got them a different'n.
A: "God knows all that'll happen."
B: "No he don't."
A: "Yes he does."
B: Flings a piece of chicken. "Did he know that was gonna happen?"
lomfpoc
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom