Scientific thinking and common sense

[Eloi]

I have noticed that sometimes people with a scientific mind, people who have studied a lot and know a lot of information about different sciences, do not notice simple things that do not escape the attention of ordinary people, even if they have studied less or almost nothing.

For example, the fact that the animals that evolutionists call "lower" in the evolutionary scale still live alongside humans, and that others supposedly fitter, because they are located in a higher position in the evolutionary line of man, no longer exist.

Evolutionary theory holds that as animals progressed up the evolutionary scale, they became more capable of surviving. Why, then, is the “inferior” ape family still in existence, but not a single one of the presumed intermediate forms, which were supposed to be more advanced in evolution? Today we see chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans, but no “ape-men.” Does it seem likely that every one of the more recent and supposedly more advanced “links” between apelike creatures and modern man should have become extinct, but not the lower apes? https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101985017

To what extent do you think the "wisdom" of this system of things can cloud a person's mind?

[Jose Fly]

I do not belong to "a church", I do not abide by a "statement of beliefs", I do not espouse my beliefs unless asked, I do not proselytize, I do not judge others' beliefs, I do not attend "services". The apostles did not agree eye to eye, so why expect the rest of us to?

Most modern Christian denominations are just like the Pharisees, they burden their members with rules, regulations, schedules and so on.

A good example of Christian mindset is the Quakers.

But, this is not a theological thread, so I won't dwell any further on this here.

And I'm sure there are no shortage of Christians who see you in a similar way, which is kinda the point.

[JoeyKnothead]

Understanding comes from God, not from living in a "Christian" family or community.

You can't even show your favored god exists, much less could be understood.

Be patient, God will reveal himself to you in his own way in his own time.

It amuses me that folks pretend they know the mind of a god they can't show exists to even have him one.

"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" is a poor means of debate.

[Jose Fly]

This reminds me of a time many years ago when I asked a fellow believer about a specific issue I had with the story of the Great Flood. The man listened politely, but when I was finished explaining it, he simply replied, "You can ask God about it when we get to heaven."

Oh man, I can't tell you how many times I've heard that sort of thing. "Well you can just take it up with God after you die!" I always took that as a tacit admission that they had no answer to what I was posing.

He didn't realize that I was wondering if there were any reason to accept the Bible's claims about God. If there weren't, there'd be no reason to expect I'd be asking any questions of God at least not the flood sending one.

That's analytical thinking (thinking in a logical, step-wise manner), something that's a lot rarer than many folks (myself included) realize.

As I've looked back on that conversation and others like it, it seems to me that it's advice on how to maintain faith and obviously not a path to finding truth. Kinda like, oh don't worry about those troubling issues that have no resolution, just keep your eyes on heaven. I just couldn't do that. I couldn't believe what didn't make sense. Plenty of people are though. Very odd.

Likely because they're more prone to intuitive thinking, where things are evaluated primarily by how they make you feel. So when people like you (and me) try and apply analytical thinking to religion, we instantly see it doesn't make sense, which becomes a bit of a deal breaker. But when intuitive thinkers apply their way of thinking to religion, whether or not it makes sense is secondary or even irrelevant.

ETA: Oh, and oddly enough, God never gave me any understanding that resolved the issue I had with the tale of the Ark. I must have prayed wrong or something.

When I was a kid, I sincerely tried to pray about a problem I was having. I tried for several nights. Eventually, after getting absolutely nothing out of it I said out loud, "This is pointless. I'm just talking to a wall. If things are gonna change, I have to do it myself."

I still remember that day as the moment when I completely gave up on Christianity and religion in general. I've never prayed since.

Of course, I've had plenty of Christians tell me what you describe....I must have not been sincere, I did it wrong, "figure it out yourself" was God's answer, etc. But taking this back to earlier today, I see those as nothing more than coping mechanisms, invoked to deal with an inconvenient truth....someone gave Christian prayer a genuine try and it didn't work.

[Tcg]

A good example of Christian mindset is the Quakers.

You mean these Quakers?

WELCOME TO THE NFN

Welcome to the Nontheist Friends Network (NFN) UK. We are a group of nontheist, (nontheist leaning or sympathetic), or humanist Quakers and the Network exists to provide a forum and supportive framework for Friends (Quakers) and other ‘nontheists’ who regard religion as a human creation. We want to ensure that our Religious Society of Friends is an inclusive rather than an exclusive Society and welcoming to all ‘of any religion or none’.

https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/

Yes, I agree.


Tcg

[brunumb]

Understanding comes from God, not from living in a "Christian" family or community.

On the other hand you also stated:

Unless one puts in the work, the study, the effort and research one will not be able to make sense of it and could easily make the error of describing this as "nonsensical" and "badly written", do you see what I mean?

So which is it? There are many atheists who engaged in all that effort and research, for decades in some cases, reaching the opposite conclusion that they were working towards. Matt Dillahunty was even ready to become an ordained minister. So what happened? God withdrew his understanding? Or did he approach it with a genuinely open mind whereupon, after close scrutiny, the whole shebang just fell apart at the seams.

[brunumb]

Understanding comes from God, not from living in a "Christian" family or community.

You can't even show your favored god exists, much less could be understood.

Be patient, God will reveal himself to you in his own way in his own time.

And if you die before he gets around to revealing himself to you, he will just punish you for eternity.

[brunumb]

Revealed spiritual knowledge, for example:

A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

Whoever restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

and this, even the Jews of the day, those who claimed to understand God, those who studied the scripture routinely - did not understand:

Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Understanding includes the acknowledgement to one's self that one has been in error, that one has mis-understood, the beginning of understanding is to grasp that one has misunderstood, until that time one is lost, wandering in a fog and unaware of it.

So God reveals these things through people who then write the revelations into scripture, but the only way anyone can actually understand any of it is if the same God provides a subsequent revelation, on an individual basis.

Is that what you're describing?

The obvious point is, it didn't help you, people can't help you, all understanding comes from God.

So what do you say to folks who specifically asked God to help them understand, but got nothing?

This isn't really a theology thread, go and ask the question in one of the other forum areas, you'll get plenty of helpful replies.

Common sense and scientific thinking tells us that your previous response regarding revealed spiritual knowledge was nothing more than preaching.

[brunumb]

That is the very people who had been preserving and revering and dutifully copying God's word for over three thousand years did not understand what was written.

A pity then that so many originals just up and disappeared. Preservation indeed. Oh, well, it was only the word of God so what did that matter.

[JoeyKnothead]

We also have to wonder why God presumably gives his followers drastically different understand.

Mandatory response...


See Dewberry Baptist Church #1.

They split up cause one bunch got em revealed the one understanding, but the other bunch got them a different'n.

A: "God knows all that'll happen."

B: "No he don't."

A: "Yes he does."

B: Flings a piece of chicken. "Did he know that was gonna happen?"

lomfpoc

[Tcg]

We also have to wonder why God presumably gives his followers drastically different understand.

Mandatory response...


See Dewberry Baptist Church #1.

They split up cause one bunch got em revealed the one understanding, but the other bunch got them a different'n.

A: "God knows all that'll happen."

B: "No he don't."

A: "Yes he does."

B: Flings a piece of chicken. "Did he know that was gonna happen?"

lomfpoc

Well like they always say, never discuss politics and religion or eat biscuits and chicken at the same time. Nothing good can come from it. Now biscuits with bacon gravy? No one's going to split a church over that... unless some add pepper.


Tcg