Scientific thinking and common sense

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Eloi
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1775
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 213 times
Contact:

Scientific thinking and common sense

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

I have noticed that sometimes people with a scientific mind, people who have studied a lot and know a lot of information about different sciences, do not notice simple things that do not escape the attention of ordinary people, even if they have studied less or almost nothing.

For example, the fact that the animals that evolutionists call "lower" in the evolutionary scale still live alongside humans, and that others supposedly fitter, because they are located in a higher position in the evolutionary line of man, no longer exist.

Evolutionary theory holds that as animals progressed up the evolutionary scale, they became more capable of surviving. Why, then, is the “inferior” ape family still in existence, but not a single one of the presumed intermediate forms, which were supposed to be more advanced in evolution? Today we see chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans, but no “ape-men.” Does it seem likely that every one of the more recent and supposedly more advanced “links” between apelike creatures and modern man should have become extinct, but not the lower apes? https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101985017

To what extent do you think the "wisdom" of this system of things can cloud a person's mind?

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Scientific thinking and common sense

Post #111

Post by Tcg »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:07 pm The apostles did not agree eye to eye, so why expect the rest of us to?
Perhaps because of your (totally unsupported) claim that God gives understanding. If he didn't bother to give it to the apostles, we most certainly shouldn't expect the rest of you to have received it either. You are in essence admitting that your claim about God's actions are false. Guess what? I totally agree, your claim is false. God does not pass out understanding, that is why (at least one of the reasons) the apostles didn't agree eye to eye.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Scientific thinking and common sense

Post #112

Post by Tcg »

Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:54 pm
When I was a kid, I sincerely tried to pray about a problem I was having. I tried for several nights. Eventually, after getting absolutely nothing out of it I said out loud, "This is pointless. I'm just talking to a wall. If things are gonna change, I have to do it myself."

I still remember that day as the moment when I completely gave up on Christianity and religion in general. I've never prayed since.
It took me a lot longer to give up on Christianity, but I remember similar experiences. It was almost as if prayer was simply a habit or a self-soothing practice that hung around long after I no longer believed in God. I'd catch myself praying and then ask myself, "What are you doing?" The answer of course was, "Nothing of value, ain't no one listening." At times I still kind of miss the idea of an all-knowing being listening to all my thoughts and caring about what I'm struggling with. I don't miss it enough though to convince myself to believe in the unbelievable.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Inquirer
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Scientific thinking and common sense

Post #113

Post by Inquirer »

Tcg wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:59 pm
Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:07 pm
A good example of Christian mindset is the Quakers.
You mean these Quakers?

WELCOME TO THE NFN

Welcome to the Nontheist Friends Network (NFN) UK. We are a group of nontheist, (nontheist leaning or sympathetic), or humanist Quakers and the Network exists to provide a forum and supportive framework for Friends (Quakers) and other ‘nontheists’ who regard religion as a human creation. We want to ensure that our Religious Society of Friends is an inclusive rather than an exclusive Society and welcoming to all ‘of any religion or none’.

https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/
Yes, I agree.


Tcg
I was referring to the earlier Quaker movement, yes I am aware of non-theist quakers and I welcome them.

User avatar
Inquirer
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Scientific thinking and common sense

Post #114

Post by Inquirer »

Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:15 am
Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:07 pm The apostles did not agree eye to eye, so why expect the rest of us to?
Perhaps because of your (totally unsupported) claim that God gives understanding.
God has given me understanding, accept that or not as you see fit.
Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:15 am If he didn't bother to give it to the apostles, we most certainly shouldn't expect the rest of you to have received it either.
Erm, he did give it to the apostles, as I pointed out:
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.
At that time "scriptures" was the Hebrew Scriptures (although at the time of Christ most Jews there used the Greek translation the Septuagint). Christ revealed to them that what is written there was a prophecy about the very events that had just witnessed, in other words he revealed the meaning behind the words, just as he did with parables.
Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:15 am You are in essence admitting that your claim about God's actions are false. Guess what? I totally agree, your claim is false. God does not pass out understanding, that is why (at least one of the reasons) the apostles didn't agree eye to eye.
I never admitted any such thing.

User avatar
Inquirer
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Scientific thinking and common sense

Post #115

Post by Inquirer »

Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:29 am
Jose Fly wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:54 pm
When I was a kid, I sincerely tried to pray about a problem I was having. I tried for several nights. Eventually, after getting absolutely nothing out of it I said out loud, "This is pointless. I'm just talking to a wall. If things are gonna change, I have to do it myself."

I still remember that day as the moment when I completely gave up on Christianity and religion in general. I've never prayed since.
It took me a lot longer to give up on Christianity, but I remember similar experiences. It was almost as if prayer was simply a habit or a self-soothing practice that hung around long after I no longer believed in God. I'd catch myself praying and then ask myself, "What are you doing?" The answer of course was, "Nothing of value, ain't no one listening." At times I still kind of miss the idea of an all-knowing being listening to all my thoughts and caring about what I'm struggling with. I don't miss it enough though to convince myself to believe in the unbelievable.
Everything described here and referred to here is a result of the influence of humans not God. Humans have (unwittingly no doubt) led you to reasonably conclude there is no God, you have been deceived as was prophesized.

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: Scientific thinking and common sense

Post #116

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Speling edit...
Inquirer wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:07 pm God has given me understanding, accept that or not as you see fit.
...
The beauty of such is all it takes is to say it.

Showing it to be truth, well that's a whole nother deal.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1462
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 337 times
Been thanked: 906 times

Re: Scientific thinking and common sense

Post #117

Post by Jose Fly »

Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:29 am It took me a lot longer to give up on Christianity, but I remember similar experiences. It was almost as if prayer was simply a habit or a self-soothing practice that hung around long after I no longer believed in God. I'd catch myself praying and then ask myself, "What are you doing?" The answer of course was, "Nothing of value, ain't no one listening." At times I still kind of miss the idea of an all-knowing being listening to all my thoughts and caring about what I'm struggling with. I don't miss it enough though to convince myself to believe in the unbelievable.
Yep, prayer obviously provides a lot of people with emotional benefits. I completely understand the need to pray, especially in situations where not much else can be done. But some folks just can't get past the first hurdle of "but it doesn't actually change the situation".

IMO, it again boils down to different ways of thinking. Both analytical and intuitive thinking have their pros and cons and are useful in different ways, so it's not like one is better than the other.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

User avatar
Inquirer
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1012
Joined: Tue May 31, 2022 6:03 pm
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: Scientific thinking and common sense

Post #118

Post by Inquirer »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:13 pm Speling edit...
Inquirer wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:07 pm God has given me understanding, accept that or not as you see fit.
...
The beauty of such is all it takes is to say it.

Showing it to be truth, well that's a whole nother deal.
Why do you ask this of me? I have told you only God can reveal himself to us, asking me over and over to do something only God can do is obviously pointless, but go ahead, if it makes you feel better, if it gives you comfort.

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3017
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3247 times
Been thanked: 1997 times

Re: Scientific thinking and common sense

Post #119

Post by Difflugia »

Inquirer wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:30 pmI have told you only God can reveal himself to us,
I can say the same thing about the leprechaun in my pocket. The apparently unbridgeable gulf separating us is that you can somehow say your thing with a straight face.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
Jose Fly
Guru
Posts: 1462
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
Location: Out west somewhere
Has thanked: 337 times
Been thanked: 906 times

Re: Scientific thinking and common sense

Post #120

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:30 pm Why do you ask this of me?
I've always been amazed at how often some people have to be reminded that they're in a debate forum. I recently went back and read through some of my old debates with creationists, and one of the main things that stood out to me was how unfamiliar creationists seem to be with the concept of debate. It seems to be a completely foreign concept to them.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Post Reply