JESUS IS NOT GOD

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onewithhim
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JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

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tam
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #501

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:10 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:31 am OK, so the Word existed from the beginning as God.
tam wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:33 am No, the Word is Christ. Not God.
That isn't what the Bible states:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If the Word is Christ as you claim, then Christ was in the beginning, and Christ was with God, and Christ was God.
He was in the beginning, and He was with God... but I posted from the start of our exchange that this last part is a translation issue. It is contested. From a common sense pov, you cannot BE someone and then also be WITH them at the same time.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.


There you can see that the Word is being spoken as another being, who was with God in the beginning.

I'm not sure if the following could be the actual problem, but please also note that God here is translated from theos... which can mean the Most Holy One of Israel, but can also mean other things, including one who represents Him (as Christ certainly does):

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/

I. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities

II. the Godhead, trinity[/color]
A. God the Father, the first person in the trinity
B. Christ, the second person of the trinity
C. Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

III. spoken of the only and true God
A. refers to the things of God
B. his counsels, interests, things due to him

IV. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
A. God's representative or viceregent
i. of magistrates and judges
**

As for Christ being the Word, the author then goes on to state that all things were made through Him (the Word):

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

But later Christ is identified as the One through whom God made the universe (Hebrews 1:2).


Therefore Christ IS the Word.

Tam wrote:The Word of God is Christ.
So are the Word and The Word of God different beings?
No, I was just emphasizing the difference between God, and the Word OF God.

Just as Christ is the Holy One OF God.


Peace again to you!
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #502

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:08 pm
onewithhim wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 am But you said that Christ didn't exist before he became a man. That is demonstrably untrue. He existed as a mighty spirit in heaven with his Father, and then was appointed by his Father, not himself to come to Earth as a man......long after he created all things by means of his Father's power and direction.
When that mighty spirit in heaven came to earth as a man, Jesus was born.
That's right---the human that was named Jesus was born on Earth. But he existed in heaven long before he came to the Earth, as you indicate here. He was known as Michael, and the name "Jesus" was given to him upon his birth here on Earth. He is Michael again, back in heaven with his Father and all the angels.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #503

Post by onewithhim »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:25 pm Virtually every Biblical reference suggesting Jesus is God, that comes from the Gospels is from John. The synoptic Gospels, particularly the more factual and historic minded Gospels, Mark and Matthew do not make such claims. Jesus himself did not make such a claim according to the synoptic Gospels.
Upon close inspection, John's Gospel does not claim that Jesus is God either. People have thoroughly twisted some verses to make it seem like John was saying that Jesus is God. Examining the Greek language of John 1:1 helps us to understand that John was not saying that Jesus is God Almighty. He was contrasting THE God with A god. The term "god" has the connotation of a mighty, important person, and one of possibly many, but not THE one almighty God. Greek speakers of John's day would have understood that. It is bad translation to say that "the Word was God" when there is no article before "god." There are no uppercase letters or punctuation in Greek. We can tell what is the only one by the article appearing before the noun "god." To be correct we would read the sentence like this: "the word was with the god and the word was a god." Jesus was a powerful, important individual, but not THE god.

There are other places where very bad translation takes place, such as John 8:58. Such a mish-mash of interpretation is entirely misleading. Jesus spoke fine Greek and would not have twisted terms around as has happened in many versions. He was not making a statement as to who he was, but as to how old he was. "Before Abraham was born, I existed." This is correctly stated in more than a dozen versions of the Gospel. Sadly, the version that almost everyone has, to the exclusion of all others, is the KJV. It is good to have, but must be studied with the inclusion of other versions, including an Interlinear version.

No, John's Gospel does not back up the erroneous idea that Jesus is God. In fact, he has shown in most of his writing, that Jesus is subordinate to God. (John 17:3; John 20:17)

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #504

Post by Revelations won »

Dear onewithhim and mythone.com,

It appears to me that Tam did a great job in establishing the point she was making. I find it interesting that you do a great job of denying any scriptures that do not agree with your man made interpretations. The scripture Tam has used do not present any ambiguity. I respect your right to your opinions even if they do not agree with the scriptures. Your opinions that do not agree with the written word by no means make them truthful.

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and[media] Lord of lords[/media], a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

The above Scripture concurs with the which Tam has posted, for Christ is indeed Lord of lords.

I find it a bit amusing that you seek to rob Christ of his divinity as God the son who created all things.

As I observe, your position is that any mortal man could therefore atone for our sins a be the redeemer of all mankind.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #505

Post by onewithhim »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:46 am Dear onewithhim and mythone.com,

It appears to me that Tam did a great job in establishing the point she was making. I find it interesting that you do a great job of denying any scriptures that do not agree with your man made interpretations. The scripture Tam has used do not present any ambiguity. I respect your right to your opinions even if they do not agree with the scriptures. Your opinions that do not agree with the written word by no means make them truthful.

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and[media] Lord of lords[/media], a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

The above Scripture concurs with the which Tam has posted, for Christ is indeed Lord of lords.
Tam has missed the real meaning of that verse. I'm surprised but she doesn't know, apparently, that everywhere "LORD" appears in the Scriptures with all capital letters, that is where the personal name of God, JEHOVAH appears as the Tetragrammaton, YHWH (translated most commonly as "Jehovah" in English Bibles). So the LORD your God is Jehovah, and it appears 7,000 times in the Scriptures. Jehovah and Jesus are two separate individuals, and I thought Tam realized this. Jehovah is the Most High (see Psalm 83:18 in the KJV), so is considered the highest Lord of lords, over everyone. Jesus is the Lord of all the titles of "lord" given among men. Jesus is "Lord of lords" because Jehovah says so. Jehovah GAVE him the position that is above everyone except, of course, Jehovah's.

Jesus "became obedient to the point of death....For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name...." (Philippians 2:8,9)

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #506

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:08 pm
Revelations won wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:46 am Dear onewithhim and mythone.com,

It appears to me that Tam did a great job in establishing the point she was making. I find it interesting that you do a great job of denying any scriptures that do not agree with your man made interpretations. The scripture Tam has used do not present any ambiguity. I respect your right to your opinions even if they do not agree with the scriptures. Your opinions that do not agree with the written word by no means make them truthful.

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and[media] Lord of lords[/media], a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

The above Scripture concurs with the which Tam has posted, for Christ is indeed Lord of lords.
Tam has missed the real meaning of that verse.
I don't think I even used that verse. I believe Revelations won (peace also to you!) is commenting on the previous verses that I did use, but believes the above verse that they shared is in keeping with what I shared.

To that: Christ is indeed Lord of lords (and King of kings... Rev 19:16; 17:14), but that does not make Him the MOST Holy One (YHWH). If Rev one thinks I have implied that JAH and His Son are the same individual, then this is a misunderstanding.

God = The Father = the MOST Holy One of Israel = JAH
Christ = the Son (of God) = the HOLY One of Israel and of God = Jaheshua

(Christ is not YHWH. Christ is also not Michael. Christ did not teach either of those things. Christ is the SON of God.)


Peace again to you both, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #507

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:34 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:08 pm
Revelations won wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:46 am Dear onewithhim and mythone.com,

It appears to me that Tam did a great job in establishing the point she was making. I find it interesting that you do a great job of denying any scriptures that do not agree with your man made interpretations. The scripture Tam has used do not present any ambiguity. I respect your right to your opinions even if they do not agree with the scriptures. Your opinions that do not agree with the written word by no means make them truthful.

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and[media] Lord of lords[/media], a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

The above Scripture concurs with the which Tam has posted, for Christ is indeed Lord of lords.
Tam has missed the real meaning of that verse.
I don't think I even used that verse. I believe Revelations won (peace also to you!) is commenting on the previous verses that I did use, but believes the above verse that they shared is in keeping with what I shared.

To that: Christ is indeed Lord of lords (and King of kings... Rev 19:16; 17:14), but that does not make Him the MOST Holy One (YHWH). If Rev one thinks I have implied that JAH and His Son are the same individual, then this is a misunderstanding.

God = The Father = the MOST Holy One of Israel = JAH
Christ = the Son (of God) = the HOLY One of Israel and of God = Jaheshua

(Christ is not YHWH. Christ is also not Michael. Christ did not teach either of those things. Christ is the SON of God.)


Peace again to you both, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Thank you for setting that straight.

We might possibly have discussed the point that Jesus was called Michael before he came to Earth. Indeed, he received the name Yeshua/Jesus only when he arrived on Earth. It makes sense that he would have had another name when in heaven for billions of years with his Father. He is also the only one who has the position of a mediator between his Father and humans, as Michael is said to have at Daniel 12:1. No one else has that privilege besides the one we know as Jesus, thus Michael and Jesus are one and the same. Why on Earth is there such resistance to Jesus having another name in heaven?

Peace to you.
OWH

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #508

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:17 am

Thank you for setting that straight.

We might possibly have discussed the point that Jesus was called Michael before he came to Earth.
You're welcome (thanks for giving me the opportunity), and though Christ is not Michael, we have indeed discussed it many times:

viewtopic.php?p=1059506#p1059506 <- In that thread, I shared the exact same verses with you that I shared with myth-one, where Christ still goes by His name Jaheshua (even if rendered "Jesus"), after He returned to His Father.

viewtopic.php?p=1067215#p1067215 (<-this is the same thread where you denied that Christ meant anyone can eat His flesh and drink His blood, even though He outright said anyone may eat His flesh and drink His blood.)

viewtopic.php?p=1053910#p1053910 < - also links to other threads and discussions about Christ and Michael.

viewtopic.php?p=1055809#p1055809 <- 'stand up' does not mean 'mediate'

viewtopic.php?p=1059361#p1059361 < - Jude mentions BOTH Michael and Christ in the exact same conversation. Two different persons; two different beings.

viewtopic.php?p=1053276#p1053276 < - voice of an archangel, trumpet of God

viewtopic.php?p=908772#p908772 < - Hebrews distinguishing between Christ and angels.


And of course Christ never once taught that He was Michael. Just as He never taught that He was God (YHWH), or that He was part of a "trinity God".
Why on Earth is there such resistance to Jesus having another name in heaven?

Why on Earth do people keep trying to make Christ into someone other than who He said He IS?

Peace to you.
Thank you!

Peace also to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

(edited to bold something)
Last edited by tam on Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #509

Post by onewithhim »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:17 am
tam wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:34 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:08 pm
Revelations won wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:46 am Dear onewithhim and mythone.com,

It appears to me that Tam did a great job in establishing the point she was making. I find it interesting that you do a great job of denying any scriptures that do not agree with your man made interpretations. The scripture Tam has used do not present any ambiguity. I respect your right to your opinions even if they do not agree with the scriptures. Your opinions that do not agree with the written word by no means make them truthful.

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and[media] Lord of lords[/media], a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

The above Scripture concurs with the which Tam has posted, for Christ is indeed Lord of lords.
Tam has missed the real meaning of that verse.
I don't think I even used that verse. I believe Revelations won (peace also to you!) is commenting on the previous verses that I did use, but believes the above verse that they shared is in keeping with what I shared.

To that: Christ is indeed Lord of lords (and King of kings... Rev 19:16; 17:14), but that does not make Him the MOST Holy One (YHWH). If Rev one thinks I have implied that JAH and His Son are the same individual, then this is a misunderstanding.

God = The Father = the MOST Holy One of Israel = JAH
Christ = the Son (of God) = the HOLY One of Israel and of God = Jaheshua

(Christ is not YHWH. Christ is also not Michael. Christ did not teach either of those things. Christ is the SON of God.)


Peace again to you both, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Thank you for setting that straight.

We might possibly have discussed the point that Jesus was called Michael before he came to Earth. Indeed, he received the name Yeshua/Jesus only when he arrived on Earth. It makes sense that he would have had another name when in heaven for billions of years with his Father. He is also the only one who has the position of a mediator between his Father and humans, as Michael is said to have at Daniel 12:1. No one else has that privilege besides the one we know as Jesus, thus Michael and Jesus are one and the same.

Peace to you.
OWH

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #510

Post by onewithhim »

I appreciate all of the comments on this thread. Please continue to do so.

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