I disagree with Christians. Slavery and rape are WRONG

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anotheratheisthere
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I disagree with Christians. Slavery and rape are WRONG

Post #1

Post by anotheratheisthere »

As you all know, Exodus 21 (the passage right after the 10 commandments) completely and fully condones slavery.

It starts by saying "If you buy a Hebrew slave". It then goes on to saying that if you beat your slave to death, it's a bad thing, but if you beat him and after a couple of days he is still alive, then it's ok, because that slave is your property after all.

It says that if you give your slave a wife, and he has children with her, then the children are the property of you the master, not of the slave.

Go read it. Read the whole of Exodus 20 (the ten commandments) and Exodus 21 back to back.

The Bible also condones rape. In Deuteronomy 22:28-29 it says that if a man rapes a woman, then she is forced to marry him. There are another 9 passages in the bible which condone or even encourage rape.

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. Slavery is wrong and rape is wrong. Period. The Bible is WRONG to condone and encourage them.

Anybody who gives any validity whatsoever to a book that condones two of the most horrible things a human being can do is wrong. Anybody who believes that such a twisted and sick book was written by some kind of benevolent omnipotent invisible man in the sky is delusional. Anybody who takes inspiration or moral guidance from such a twisted text is perverted.

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Re: I disagree with Christians. Slavery and rape are WRONG

Post #41

Post by Miles »

bjs1 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:51 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:55 am
bjs1 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:55 pm So a person can be purchased as a slave, but only if that person willingly sold themselves into slavery
Balderdash! I await your evidence.
Didn't you already provide it? You quoted Exodus 21:16, which says, “Whoever steals someone to sell them as a slave or to keep them for their own slave must be killed." According to the OT law, to force a person into slavery (that is, when they did not willingly sell themselves) was a capital offense.
I await the verse that substantiates this.


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Re: I disagree with Christians. Slavery and rape are WRONG

Post #42

Post by bjs1 »

Miles wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:19 pm
bjs1 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:51 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:55 am
bjs1 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:55 pm So a person can be purchased as a slave, but only if that person willingly sold themselves into slavery
Balderdash! I await your evidence.
Didn't you already provide it? You quoted Exodus 21:16, which says, “Whoever steals someone to sell them as a slave or to keep them for their own slave must be killed." According to the OT law, to force a person into slavery (that is, when they did not willingly sell themselves) was a capital offense.
I await the verse that substantiates this.


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The provided verse seems to spell it out pretty clearly. You will have to explain your reasoning as to why it remains un-substantiated.
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Re: I disagree with Christians. Slavery and rape are WRONG

Post #43

Post by Willum »

[Replying to bjs1 in post #42]

The answer is usually, that it would make them sad.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.

You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.

To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight

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Re: I disagree with Christians. Slavery and rape are WRONG

Post #44

Post by Miles »

bjs1 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:15 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:19 pm
bjs1 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:51 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:55 am
bjs1 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:55 pm So a person can be purchased as a slave, but only if that person willingly sold themselves into slavery
Balderdash! I await your evidence.
Didn't you already provide it? You quoted Exodus 21:16, which says, “Whoever steals someone to sell them as a slave or to keep them for their own slave must be killed." According to the OT law, to force a person into slavery (that is, when they did not willingly sell themselves) was a capital offense.
I await the verse that substantiates this.


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The provided verse seems to spell it out pretty clearly. You will have to explain your reasoning as to why it remains un-substantiated.
Okay The verse I assume you're talking of is Exodus 21:16, which says, “Whoever steals someone to sell them as a slave or to keep them for their own slave must be killed."

The operative qualification here is “Whoever steals someone." Please note that not all slaves are stolen. Many, many slaves were sold, inherited, and so forth. No stealing involved. They are the legal property of another. AND, slaves, by definition are people who are forced to work for their owner or at least obey them.

slave
/slāv/
noun: slave; plural noun: slaves
a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
source: Oxford Languages

So, while your Exodus 21:16 may apply in some cases, it has no application here. Now back to your previous claim: According to the OT law, to force a person into slavery (that is, when they did not willingly sell themselves) was a capital offense.
All I ask is that you supply such an OT law. The Book, Chapter, and Verse that says such a thing.


And please note that it was yourself who first brought up the Exodus verse in post 33.

"The Bible does say that rape (Deuteronomy 22:25) or forcing someone to become a slave (Exodus 21:16) both carry the death penalty. So it doesn’t seem entirely accurate to say that the Bible treats either of these things are morally right.''


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Re: I disagree with Christians. Slavery and rape are WRONG

Post #46

Post by brunumb »

From the link: "The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated, but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. "

The Bible does condone slavery. The rest of the article is a feeble attempt to redefine and whitewash the practice of people owning others as property.

Leviticus 25:44-46
44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
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Re: I disagree with Christians. Slavery and rape are WRONG

Post #47

Post by Miles »

brunumb wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:54 pm
From the link: "The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated, but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. "

The Bible does condone slavery. The rest of the article is a feeble attempt to redefine and whitewash the practice of people owning others as property.

Leviticus 25:44-46
44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
In a slightly more direct version where a slave is called a "slave."

Leviticus 25:44-46
44 “About your men and women slaves: You may get men and women slaves from the other nations around you. 45 Also, you may get children as slaves if they come from the families of the foreigners living in your land. These child slaves will belong to you. 46 You may even pass these foreign slaves on to your children after you die so that they will belong to them. They will be your slaves forever. You may make slaves of these foreigners. But you must not be a cruel master over your own brothers, the Israelites.

(Of the 54 Bibles I checked, 77% used the term "slave" in Leviticus 25:44)

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Re: I disagree with Christians. Slavery and rape are WRONG

Post #48

Post by Tcg »

Miles wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:07 pm
brunumb wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:54 pm
From the link: "The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated, but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. "

The Bible does condone slavery. The rest of the article is a feeble attempt to redefine and whitewash the practice of people owning others as property.

Leviticus 25:44-46
44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
In a slightly more direct version where a slave is called a "slave."

Leviticus 25:44-46
44 “About your men and women slaves: You may get men and women slaves from the other nations around you. 45 Also, you may get children as slaves if they come from the families of the foreigners living in your land. These child slaves will belong to you. 46 You may even pass these foreign slaves on to your children after you die so that they will belong to them. They will be your slaves forever. You may make slaves of these foreigners. But you must not be a cruel master over your own brothers, the Israelites.

(Of the 54 Bibles I checked, 77% used the term "slave" in Leviticus 25:44)

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The phrase in the middle of verse 46, "They will be your slaves forever." seals the deal. No matter what word one choices to put in place of the word, "salve", slavery is what is described there.

Some who admit the obvious, that this describes slavery, try to claim that it was some special kind of nice slavery. Again, a phrase from verse 46 reveals that isn't the case, "But you must not be a cruel master over your own brothers, the Israelites." By implication that means is fine and dandy if you are a cruel master to your foreign slaves. Sounds just like the antebellum south to me.


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