Odd morality

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Willum
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Odd morality

Post #1

Post by Willum »

You know I find it odd.

The Ancient Greeks recognized the immorality of Zeus; who sent floods, plagues, enacted cruel transformations, etc., and the Greeks responded by labeling Zeus and the other gods immoral.
They further responded by creating a code of morality for people that did not involve deities.

The Greeks saw their gods without morals, and so created their own.

Whereas the Ancient Hebrew and modern day Judaists and Christians see identical or similar acts by their god, and rather then decry these acts as malevolent, defend them as being benevolent.

For debate: The Ancient Greeks were more mature and moral than modern Judaists and Christians.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #2

Post by Purple Knight »

Willum wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:56 pmFor debate: The Ancient Greeks were more mature and moral than modern Judaists and Christians.
Neither, the Ancient Greeks were just not thinking as intelligently about godly power as the Jews.

If someone had truly godly power, they could use that to tinker with morality itself and remake it more to their liking.

So you can say the people creating/describing the God of the Bible are on level 0. Their God is not into fairness or taking turns. You could say the Greeks are on level 1 here, when they recognise that overarching fairness: Gods can behave immorally too, and they can in fact violate that overarching principle.

But in reality the those who believe in the God of the Bible are on level 4. They skipped over 2 and 3. They see how godly power can be used to alter the concept of morality, and indeed fairness if it wishes, and then do whatever it wants and still be fair. Why wouldn't a god do this with its power? You get everything and lose nothing. You become the most moral, fairest god. And you get to do whatever you want.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #3

Post by Willum »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #2]

I can't say anything of the kind, neither can you.
For you or I to disparage the Ancient Greek philosophers would be nothing but childish hubris. They weren't thinking about their gods when they observed they were immoral? Of course they were.
There is still less thought in defining the abhorrent acts of Yahweh as moral.

We have exact examples to compare and contrast Yahweh with Zeus, and to call one moral and the other not, is hypocritical.

As for gods violating overarching principles, that can't be demonstrated nor agreed upon, at any level.
The Greeks have demonstrated that fallacy of "godly power" defining morality, when they disagreed with Zeus and created the for runner to Humanism,.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #4

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I suspect that we have a skewed view of the Greeks as enlightened rationalists with a love of democratic freedom and a skepticism about supernatural claims. Aside from an experiment in 'Democracy' they were as hag - ridden as any resident of Salem, and could have their own religious show trials, as Socrates found out. Yet the start of Reason and science was sown.

Their Thinkers saw clearly that the gods in their stories did not in any way reach the moral ideal that even humans could see. And how is that in any way different from the Bible apologists who will not see that the God of the OT falls far, far short of the best that human morality can do?

Sure, we can propose a God of perfect goodness, just as the Greeks could, but in just the same way, the old myths do not describe it.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #5

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Willum wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:56 pm You know I find it odd.

The Ancient Greeks recognized the immorality of Zeus; who sent floods, plagues, enacted cruel transformations, etc., and the Greeks responded by labeling Zeus and the other gods immoral.
They further responded by creating a code of morality for people that did not involve deities.

The Greeks saw their gods without morals, and so created their own.

Whereas the Ancient Hebrew and modern day Judaists and Christians see identical or similar acts by their god, and rather then decry these acts as malevolent, defend them as being benevolent.

For debate: The Ancient Greeks were more mature and moral than modern Judaists and Christians.
1) Can you prove that the ancient greeks generally recogniced the immorality of Zeus? I never heard of that!

2) Can you prove zhat the ancient hebrews recogniced the perfect morality of Jehovah? Or are you confusing them with todays christians?

3) What was the word for perfect and the word for morality back then? Did the hebrews even have words for that?
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Re: Odd morality

Post #6

Post by TRANSPONDER »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:56 am
Willum wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:56 pm You know I find it odd.

The Ancient Greeks recognized the immorality of Zeus; who sent floods, plagues, enacted cruel transformations, etc., and the Greeks responded by labeling Zeus and the other gods immoral.
They further responded by creating a code of morality for people that did not involve deities.

The Greeks saw their gods without morals, and so created their own.

Whereas the Ancient Hebrew and modern day Judaists and Christians see identical or similar acts by their god, and rather then decry these acts as malevolent, defend them as being benevolent.

For debate: The Ancient Greeks were more mature and moral than modern Judaists and Christians.
1) Can you prove that the ancient greeks generally recogniced the immorality of Zeus? I never heard of that!

2) Can you prove zhat the ancient hebrews recogniced the perfect morality of Jehovah? Or are you confusing them with todays christians?

3) What was the word for perfect and the word for morality back then? Did the hebrews even have words for that?
I had a quick look but there was nothing that anyone here would have to accept as an authority. Yet I know from reading from Homer to Aristophanes that the Greeks were well aware that their gods were supposed to be perfect yet showed all human foibles, except that they could do whatever they liked and anyone who dared to disrespect then could find themselves looking into a cup of Hemlock. I see the cognitive disassociation no different then from what we found with OT apologists, at least.

To tell the truth, one could argue one way or another whether the Greeks were more enlightened than (say) the Persians. I just know that we seem to have a more reasonable view of rights, ethics and social elbow -room than any of those old societies did, even back in the supposedly Roaring 1920's.

I don't know the word anyone used for Perfect or Morality, but I'm sure the concept was known (Harmony with the Han Chinese, Righteousness with the Hebrews, Decens with the Romans, and Instinct and social education had passed down a common idea of the right way to live and the concept of the ideal life, even if nobody knew what that was, let alone how to do it, and how far short humans fell and the idea that a perfect being would do it all right and a god (and goddesses) would of course be perfect in that way...And yet the stories they came up with, based on course on what Humans do, fell far short of perfect morality, and all I could see was just not talking about it, or at least, not repeating it with any hint of criticism, and stomping an anyone who 'blasphemed' the gods.

I find it only too easy to catch that mindset, because it is the same as we get with religion (at least) today.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #7

Post by Willum »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #5]

What if I can't, and I certainly don't intend to, to someone whose only purpose is to undermine the topic.
Did the Greeks describe Zeus as a rapist? Yes. Is rape immoral, and was it punished by their law? Yes.

Did the Greek form a system of morality? Yes.

Caesar laughs at how immoral gods allow vice to triumph over virtue in his speech against Pompey.
Homer makes a complaint, similar to people today complaining about the problem of evil.
Protagoras said a human being is the measure of all things, of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not and not dependent on what the gods are or are not.

They observed it, it was part of their culture:
Now feel free to claim that this doesn't prove anything, and go off on tangents.
Last edited by Willum on Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #8

Post by Willum »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:38 am
Their Thinkers saw clearly that the gods in their stories did not in any way reach the moral ideal that even humans could see. And how is that in any way different from the Bible apologists who will not see that the God of the OT falls far, far short of the best that human morality can do?
However, for their faults and rationalizations - the topic doesn't claim they aren't human, the Greeks created a system of morality, and denounced their gods for various reasons.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #9

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Willum wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:15 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:38 am
Their Thinkers saw clearly that the gods in their stories did not in any way reach the moral ideal that even humans could see. And how is that in any way different from the Bible apologists who will not see that the God of the OT falls far, far short of the best that human morality can do?
However, for their faults and rationalizations - the topic doesn't claim they aren't human, the Greeks created a system of morality, and denounced their gods for various reasons.
Well, that's not too clear. We know from the story of Socrates (written by Plato) and the Aristophanes comedy where he accuses the philosophers of blaspheming the gods by pointing out their human foibles, that it was as dangerous to be an atheist in ancient Greece as it is now in a Muslim country.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #10

Post by The Nice Centurion »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:36 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:56 am
Willum wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:56 pm You know I find it odd.

The Ancient Greeks recognized the immorality of Zeus; who sent floods, plagues, enacted cruel transformations, etc., and the Greeks responded by labeling Zeus and the other gods immoral.
They further responded by creating a code of morality for people that did not involve deities.

The Greeks saw their gods without morals, and so created their own.

Whereas the Ancient Hebrew and modern day Judaists and Christians see identical or similar acts by their god, and rather then decry these acts as malevolent, defend them as being benevolent.

For debate: The Ancient Greeks were more mature and moral than modern Judaists and Christians.
1) Can you prove that the ancient greeks generally recogniced the immorality of Zeus? I never heard of that!

2) Can you prove zhat the ancient hebrews recogniced the perfect morality of Jehovah? Or are you confusing them with todays christians?

3) What was the word for perfect and the word for morality back then? Did the hebrews even have words for that?
I had a quick look but there was nothing that anyone here would have to accept as an authority. Yet I know from reading from Homer to Aristophanes that the Greeks were well aware that their gods were supposed to be perfect yet showed all human foibles, except that they could do whatever they liked and anyone who dared to disrespect then could find themselves looking into a cup of Hemlock. I see the cognitive disassociation no different then from what we found with OT apologists, at least.

To tell the truth, one could argue one way or another whether the Greeks were more enlightened than (say) the Persians. I just know that we seem to have a more reasonable view of rights, ethics and social elbow -room than any of those old societies did, even back in the supposedly Roaring 1920's.

I don't know the word anyone used for Perfect or Morality, but I'm sure the concept was known (Harmony with the Han Chinese, Righteousness with the Hebrews, Decens with the Romans, and Instinct and social education had passed down a common idea of the right way to live and the concept of the ideal life, even if nobody knew what that was, let alone how to do it, and how far short humans fell and the idea that a perfect being would do it all right and a god (and goddesses) would of course be perfect in that way...And yet the stories they came up with, based on course on what Humans do, fell far short of perfect morality, and all I could see was just not talking about it, or at least, not repeating it with any hint of criticism, and stomping an anyone who 'blasphemed' the gods.

I find it only too easy to catch that mindset, because it is the same as we get with religion (at least) today.
Exactly what I see as the handycap of this topic; We today have clear understanding of christianitys mindset and project this into ancient religion.

But I highly doubt the hebrews even had words for specifyng perfect morality. Not sure about the greeks.
But even if they had, it doesnt mean they attributed it to their gods.

The Ilias has warring greek gods on both sides. Greek and trojan. So which of them had perfect morality on their side, hmm?

On the other hand I highly doubt that priests of a greek deity would have officially claimed said deity to be immoral.

Todays christians have to defend their gods genocides, slavery, rape et cetera by claiming it still served perfect morality. Ancient hebrews were not drowning in that problem.

So you found some words that in your opinion would on a long stretch substitute for perfect morality?

Sorry, but thats poor.
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For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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