DISPENSATIONALISM IS AN UNBIBLICAL DOCTRINE

[Eddie Ramos]

Dispensationalism is a word which describes that God had a different plan of salvation for the people on the Old Testament side of the cross than he did for the people on the New Testament side of the cross. For example it is believed by many that from the time of the fall of Adam and Eve, that people were saved by their good works (obedience to God's law, the Bible), then after the cross, obedience to the law of God was no longer necessary for salvation. That is, after the cross, one only had to believe in Jesus in order to be saved.

To demonstrate this doctrine, I copied and pasted a comment in a thread I found in this forum which said, "Good works earned one salvation under the Old Testament. That is, if a person never violated any of God's laws, he or she gained eternal life..... Under the New Testament, man came under grace and not the demands of the law.".

I will debate the side that states that there was only ever one way for God's elect to become saved throughout the history of the world. It was always by grace through the faith of Christ. As my opening support, I would like to put forth this passage:

Genesis 6:6–9 (KJV 1900)
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Here we are told that the whole world was corrupt, yet Noah found grace in God's eyes. The word grace is the word "favor". Noah found favor in God's eyes. Noah did not find grace because of his good works, else grace is no more grace (Rom 11:6). God describing Noah as just and perfect, isn't describing what Noah had earned as a result of his good works, because the Old Testament clearly tells us that:

....there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Ecclesiastes 7:20 (KJV 1900)

AND,

If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; 1 Kings 8:46 (KJV 1900)

So, when God describes someone as being perfect and just, it's because God is looking at the heart (1 Sam 16:7). A perfect heart which could only come as a result of having been saved by God's grace. This is why good works could never have earned anyone salvation before the cross. Else not a single person could have become saved prior to the cross because all have sinned.

Psalm 14:2–3 (KJV 1900)
2  The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3  They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
There is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The initial question for this debate is, what are the biblical texts used to support the doctrine of dispensationalism?

[We_Are_VENOM]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

I don't know that I can provide any verses that support dispensationalism, but your topic brings up a subject I have been pondering recently.

Pondering recently, you say?

As unbelieving as you are, you just cant keep your mind off Christianity, can you?

[Eddie Ramos]

In other words, God first replaces the wicked and stony heart with a whole heart (meaning salvation came first), and then that individual can obey God's command to believe.

Whether or not someone believes something is a choice -- not a command. We choose to believe, not to believe, or we can choose to make no choice I suppose.

Everlasting life or everlasting death are the two choices. God recommends choosing life, but will honor either choice:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

We are not commanded to believe.

I can only imagine that the only reason you can say that is because you must have either missed or ignored the scripture I gave you. Here it is again:

1 John 3:23 (KJV)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Does your Bible say, "And this is his plea" or " And this is his suggestion"? This is the Word "commandment". Why is this word difficult to accept? Is it because it contradicts what you hold to be dear and true, although incorrect? It's for this very reason that the Bible tells us that the Word of God is indeed a rock of offence.

1 Peter 2:8 (KJV)
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

How then can you say that we are not commanded to believe? Do you really think you are doing God a service by ignoring what he has written for the sake of holding on to your doctrine?

And why are you of all people quoting Deuteronomy and what God said to them, if everyone on the old Testament side of the cross (according to you) had to earn eternal life by being sinless and not by believing? And where do you read anywhere in Deuteronomy 30:19 that a choice is given to believe? The passage is relating their choice to be obedient or disobedient to God's commandments. Obedience would mean they are choosing to live long in the physical promised land God gave them. And disobedience would result in their perishing from that land.

[b]Deuteronomy 30:17 - 20 (KJV) [/b]
But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

As I showed you in my previous post (which you did not address), just because someone chooses to believe, doesn't mean they have become saved. God had to do his work or regeneration first by giving them a new heart, then they could believe.

[myth-one.com]

As I showed you in my previous post (which you did not address), just because someone chooses to believe, doesn't mean they have become saved.

No one is saved until they are born again of the Spirit (God) as a spirit, at the Second Coming:

Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him... (Isaiah 62:11)

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

[Eddie Ramos]

As I showed you in my previous post (which you did not address), just because someone chooses to believe, doesn't mean they have become saved.

No one is saved until they are born again of the Spirit (God) as a spirit, at the Second Coming:

Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him... (Isaiah 62:11)

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

That is also incorrect. Our salvation is two-fold. First, when we are born again, our dead soul is brought back to everlasting life, never able to sin again. At this very moment, the child of God has indeed become saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. This word is in the present tense in the original text as well as in the translation. Also here:

2 Corinthians 2:15 (KJV 1900)
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

Again, we see that the present tense is being used by God here to speak of our spiritual condition and it says that we are saved.
It is at the moment of our initial salvation that we are given the Holy Spirit as an earnest (a pledge) guaranteeing our redemption.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (KJV 1900)
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

But then we also read language that speaks of our salvation in the future tense:

Romans 10:13 (KJV 1900)
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (future tense).

Does this mean that if someone literally calls on the name of the Lord they shall be saved sometime in the future? No, because those who call on the name of the Lord unto salvation, have already been saved, that it, they have already been brought to spiritual life first.

Psalm 80:18 (KJV 1900)
18  So will not we go back from thee:
Quicken us (bring us to life), AND we will call upon thy name.

This agrees with what I previously said in that God had to first do the work of salvation in each of his elect by bearing our sins upon himself, satisfying the demands of his own law, then bringing our dead souls back to life (quickening us) by giving us a new heart (i.e. saving us) and then we called upon his name because we believed. But Romans 10:13 still shows that salvation is in the future tense. That's because, as I said, salvation is a two-fold process. The first part was the quickening of our soul and the next part is the redemption of our sin cursed bodies which occurs on the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:51–54 (KJV 1900)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The only corruptible part of a true child of God is his body. The born again soul is incorruptible, that is why the life it has been given is everlasting, because in our soul existence, we can never again sin. This is when we are fully saved, or to put in a better way, this is when the good work that God began in each elect will be completed.

Philippians 1:6 (KJV 1900)
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

[myth-one.com]

No one is saved until they are born again of the Spirit (God) as a spirit, at the Second Coming:

That is also incorrect. Our salvation is two-fold.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All humans who ever lived will be made alive again, or resurrected. All includes both believers and nonbelievers! However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections:

But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:23)

So Jesus will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred. The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which those "that are Christ's" will be resurrected. Those "that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all Christians occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

Christians who are alive at the Second Coming of Christ will be born again as spirits and meet Jesus in the air upon his return:

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51)

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

All of those resurrected and born again of the Spirit believers will then spend the Millennium with Jesus:

...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

They were buried, or sown in the ground, as physical bodies. They are resurrected, or born again, as spiritual bodies. The following verse defines the almost universally misunderstood meaning of the term "born again":

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:5-7)

That is, to gain eternal life you must first be born as a human being, or born of water. You are 70-80% water and you were carried in water in the womb. You are born first as a flesh and blood physical human being. You must then be born again as a spirit at, or after, your resurrection. All Christians who are born again of the spirit at the first resurrection become members of the Kingdom of God. They will have become become equal unto the angels:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)

Notice that Christians become "children of the resurrection." That is, they are born at the resurrection. They were born once before in their existence, their physical birth. Since Christians are born a second time as a spiritual being at the resurrection, they are born again! It is an actual, real experience, not simply some emotional occurrence experienced during your physical life on earth. What does the Bible state we must become to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3)

We are converted into spiritual, immortal bodies, as opposed to our present physical, mortal bodies. We are new spirits, and thus spiritual "children." This blessed birth occurs at the resurrection, thus we are children of the resurrection. The wages of sin is death, but we will have been born again as spiritual bodied, sinless children of the resurrection. Therefore, we do not suffer the second death.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. (Revelation 2:11)

There are no Christians anywhere, dead or alive, who are presently born again of the Spirit Christians. You cannot be born again until Jesus returns! If you believe in Jesus Christ your name is written in the book of life as an inheritor of eternal life under terms of the New Testament. Those terms are believing in Jesus as your Savior. Those who believe in Jesus will receive everlasting life as inheritors under the New Testament:

Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. (Colossians 3:24)

The New Testament will be probated upon the Second Coming of Christ at the resurrection:

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

When you are born again the second time at the resurrection as a spiritual body which will live forever, only then can you truthfully claim to be a born again of the Spirit Christian! Until that time, you have not been born again of the Spirit, regardless of what you have been told. You have only been born once as a human. The Kingdom of God consists only of spirits. Therefore, to become members of the Kingdom of God, you must be born again as a spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

At this point after the first mass resurrection, all mankind who died as Christians along with Christians who were alive at the Second Coming have been born again as spiritual beings. They will now enjoy the millennium Sabbath with Jesus:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

All dead non-believers will be resurrected to life again as humans after the Millennium:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:5)

Being born again into the Kingdom of God is a two-step process. The first step is to be born as a human being:

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)

Man is the only animal which can ever enter the Kingdom of God. So the first step to becoming a member of the Kingdom of God is to be born as a man or woman and not some other animal. However, man cannot enter the Kingdom of God as an animal in his present flesh and blood body:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (I Corinthians 15:50)

The Bible describes only two types of beings, physical and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

There are two body types, physical and spiritual and they are different. Each of these body types requires a different birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

The scriptures state that man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. What type of birth must this be? There are only two body types, physical and spiritual, and man is born initially as a physical flesh and blood body. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God! Therefore, for man to enter the Kingdom of God he must abandon his physical body and be born again as the only remaining body type -- a spiritual body! It is so logically simple! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the spiritual Kingdom of God!

Here is how Jesus explained it. This is the definition of being born again of the Spirit:

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:5-7)

Jesus states no man can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born a second time. The first and obvious birth is a physical process involving water. We are composed of approximately 70% water and carried in water in the womb. All humans who have been born since the creation of Adam and Eve have been born of water. This first birth gets us into the animal kingdom as Homo sapiens, or man. Although man is a living breathing animal, he was created in the image of God and is the only animal capable of being born again as a spirit.

The second birth, that of being born again, is clearly defined as a spiritual birth. The Kingdom of God is composed exclusively of immortal spiritual beings. At present, this includes only God and the angels. When believers are born again of the Spirit, we will become equal unto the angels.

This act of believers being born again of the Spirit as spirits and a comparison of natural versus spiritual bodies is found in First Corinthians:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (I Corinthians 15:42-45)

This scripture is not complicated. The Christian body that is sown is corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body. This is the physical body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die. At the resurrection, Christians are raised up as incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies. This is exactly what the above verses state! Read them again several times if you must to confirm their simple truth.

Those humans who died believing in Jesus Christ will be born as spiritual bodies at the first resurrection. Since this is their second birth, they are born again.

The first man Adam was made a living soul, or being, because he was part of the animal kingdom. That is, the first body any human has is that of a living, breathing being. The last Adam will be made a quickening spirit since he will live in the Kingdom of God. That is, the last body any former human can have will be an eternal spiritual body. Notice that "Adam" is identified as a "man" only when he is made as a living soul or being. When "made a quickening spirit" the entity is called only Adam. This is significant because at this point, Adam is no longer a man, or human being. The last Adam is made a quickening spirit which lives forever. Of course, any human's name can be substituted in the place of Adam. Flesh and blood, such as man, cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Thus one must be born again as a spirit.

So "No one is saved until they are born again of the Spirit (God) as a spirit, at the Second Coming" is a true statement according to the scriptures!

[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #15]

Well, I can no longer say that you don't provide any scriptures with your comments because here you have provided plenty. But here is what I've noticed throughout our dialogues on this forum. When you are shown that the doctrines that you hold to be true, actually contradict the Bible, you don't directly address it but rather focus on something you think you are certain about. All the while ignoring that all that you hold to be true, like it or not, either builds upon itself by complete agreement, or it continues to collapse by biblical contradictions. And you really shouldn't ignore that because those truths will never go away.

Let's recap a few examples. Your doctrines are built upon literal and straightforward readings of the texts that you choose, as long as they agree with your doctrine. You read something and say that, "It is so logically simple!", thereby acknowledging how you approach the scriptures, by what makes logical sense. This is why you could not provide any scriptures, in the other thread, to show where the "logical approach" you use comes from. But it's this very approach which leads you to believe that, "This scripture is not complicated". All the while ignoring that the Word of God is spiritual (Rom 7:14) in nature rather than "logically simple". You ignore that Christ is the Word of God and that His doctrine is a doctrine of parables.

Mark 4:2–3 (KJV 1900)
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:...

You ignore the fact that christ always spoke in parables and without a parable he did not speak.

Matthew 13:34 (KJV 1900)
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

And you ignore the very reason for the Word of God speaking in parables, and it's not to make His Word "so logically simple" or "not complicated". It was for the exact opposite reason.

Matthew 13:10–14 (KJV 1900)
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

The purpose of the parabolic Word of God is to conceal truth. Truth which has to be sought out carefully by placing every puzzle piece in its correct location in order to clearly see the whole picture. Not to pick and choose which scriptures we're going to use because it agrees with us and which we're going to ignore because it contradicts what we believe.

So, for example, when you build your doctrines upon the fact that you are convicted that to believe in Jesus Christ is not a commandment from God, regardless of the scriptures I presented that says that it is a commandment (1 Jn 3:23), and rather than taking an honest self examination of what you've proclaimed in light of that, you dismiss it as if though that scripture does not exist.

And then you go on to extensively comment on a topic on what it means to be born again. But the scriptures are one cohesive truth, and when you try and build a doctrinal structure of truth with untruths, do you really think that you are going to end up with a solid structure when it's built on sand? The Bible says no.

Matthew 7:24–27 (KJV 1900)
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

But I would say that the worst flaw in the house you are building has to do with what you do with the cornerstone, Christ. When your doctrine reduces Christ to anything other than the Almighty God, your house is not only poorly built, but it's totally upside down. And sadly, not being able to see who Christ really is, is the very same problem the Pharisees and Sadducees faced.

John 8:24 (KJV 1900)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.

Exodus 3:14 (KJV 1900)
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

This is really why you have no choice but to ignore certain scriptures if you are determined to hold on to your gospel. Nevertheless, I will reply to your last post about what is means to be born again, which is far from "logically simple".

But, right now it's bed time for me. Good night all.

[Eddie Ramos]

Ok, so since your post was long, it won't be ideal for me to reply to the whole thing, but I don't feel it's necessary anyway. Instead, I will just begin at the start of your post and reply do a quarter of it. My concern though, is that if history serves to teach us, that these scriptures I provide will go ignored. But let's hope not, so here goes.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All humans who ever lived will be made alive again, or resurrected. All includes both believers and nonbelievers! However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections:

But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:23)

So Jesus will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred. The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which those "that are Christ's" will be resurrected. Those "that are Christ's" refers to Christians. This resurrection for all Christians occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

The first problem is your understanding of the term "made alive" referring to "all". So, as I've said multiple times, if you take the text at face value (for what it plainly states"), as you are obviously doing, then what you are not doing is rightly dividing the Word of Truth to see how the Greek word "made alive" (quicken) is used throughout the Bible. This word is never used to refer to the unsaved as you have applied it. Neither does the word "all" always mean "every single person". You have to remember that our logic is not the authority in what means what in the Bible. The Bible is the only authority as to what means what. Let's first confirm that this Greek word "all" doesn't always mean "every single person".

Matthew 2:3 (KJV 1900)
When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

Does this mean that every single person in Jerusalem was troubled along with Herod when the news of Christ came? The Bible says, no.

Luke 2:25–30 (KJV 1900)
25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29  Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart
In peace, according to thy word:
30  For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

And there are tons of examples like this. So, the Bible has established a truth and we cannot always assume that "all" means every single one. So, that means that now we have to dig deeper in order to be sure which way God intends for us to understand what he means by using the word "all". Foe example, in the same verse it says, As in Adam, all die". This is the same Greek word, and must be treated with the same approach. In this case, the word "all" does indeed mean "every single person born of a man and a woman" because the Bible confirms it.

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 3:23 (KJV 1900)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:10 (KJV 1900)
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

So, then we have to tackle the next use of the word "all" and not assume that just because the first use applied to all of mankind, that the second one automatically does too, because it doesn't apply at all to unbelievers. How can we know this? Because the Bible teaches us that when mankind (Adam) was created, they were created with a body, soul and spirit. The body is our flesh and blood, the spirit is the word (breath), which without we physically die, and then our soul, which is the only part of mankind that cannot be felt, seen or heard. God told Adam that the day he would disobey (sin) that he would die. Well, as we know, they both ate and dropped dead that very day just as God said, right? No, Adam lived for 930 years. But God didn't God say the day they ate they would surely die? Some believe (because Adam obviously didn't physically die) that God meant that Adam would begin the death process. But God never specified how they would die, he simply said that they would die that very day. It was after the fact that God pronounced additional curses on mankind, and physical death was one of them.

Genesis 3:19 (KJV 1900)
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

But is tis what God meant when he said, the day you eat of it you shall surely die"? As we dig deeper, we discover that the answer is no. There is another type of death that the Bible speaks of, it's the death that we can't see, hear or feel. It's the death of the soul.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV 1900)
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Adam and Eve died that very day just as God said they would, only God didn't specify in what manner they would die. That's why Satan took the opportunity to tell them the exact opposite, that they would not die the day they would eat, but instead that they would be as God.

Genesis 3:4–5 (KJV 1900)
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Well, what happened the day they ate thereof? Their eyes were opened (just as the serpent said), they became as God in that they now knew good and evil (just as the serpent said). And according to what we can logically see, they also didn't die (just like the serpent said). But we know that the devil is a liar and a deceiver and that God is a God of truth. And it was this spiritual death (the death no one can see but is nonetheless very real) that God was referring to. From this point on, Adam and Eve would conceive and beget children under the curse of sin and death.

Job 14:4 (KJV 1900)
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one.

Psalm 51:5 (KJV 1900)
5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
And in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is what it means that "In Adam all die". This means that all are conceived with a dead soul but with physical life and breath. Well, what happens when an unsaved person physically dies? Since they already have a dead soul, upon physical death, their spirit (breath) returns to God who gave it and the body return to the dust (Ecc 12:7). Thus, there is no more existence for that unsaved person.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV 1900)
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalm 146:4 (KJV 1900)
4  His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

This is what it means to perish, it's the opposite of eternal life. The Bible defines eternal life as living forever, thus the dead unsaved are never given eternal life anywhere in the Bible. This is what the erroneous doctrine of eternal punishment in a literal place called hell teaches. It brings a dead soul back to life (which the Bible defines as salvation) and it ignorantly gives the wicked unsaved eternal life (because they're said to go on living forever) but in a place called hell.

So, back to 1 Cor 15. Who exactly then is the "all" who are going to be made alive (quickened)? The same verse tells us.

1 Corinthians 15:22–23 (KJV 1900)
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

The "all" who will be made alive are those IN Christ. Now we can properly understand verse 23. But every man (who is IN Christ) in his own order. Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

The coming of Christ is also being misunderstood as you are neglecting who the firstfruits are those people who became saved from the time of the fall of man until Christ came to bring judgment upon the earthly churches of the world.

1 Peter 4:17 (KJV 1900)
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write;...
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

The Lord also pointed out that His "coming" in judgment on the churches would be as a thief:

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Afterward (meaning during the judgment on the churches of the world), God saved a great multitude which no man could number before bringing judgment upon the whole world for their sin.

1 Corinthians 15:24 (KJV 1900)
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

[myth-one.com]

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All humans who ever lived will be made alive again, or resurrected. All includes both believers and nonbelievers!

The first problem is your understanding of the term "made alive" referring to "all".

I only understand it that way because that is what the scriptures as inspired by God state.

Sorry if that offends you.

[Eddie Ramos]

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All humans who ever lived will be made alive again, or resurrected. All includes both believers and nonbelievers!

The first problem is your understanding of the term "made alive" referring to "all".

I only understand it that way because that is what the scriptures as inspired by God state.

Sorry if that offends you.

I'm not at all offended, just trying to help if you want it, but not everyone does. By the way, there are many things the inspired scriptures of God state that you personally don't take at face value, so I guess I'm not sure why 1 Corinthians 15:23 & John 3:16 are an exception, unless you're the one who decides when to take the Word of God just as stated by God, and when not to. For example:

Matthew 5:30 (KJV 1900)
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:29 (KJV 1900)
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Has your hand or eye ever caused you to sin? Do you still both hands and both eyes? How about this one?

Matthew 5:48 (KJV 1900)
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

There are tons more like these which show us that there's more to what God has stated in the Bible than what our logic can grasp. So much so that scriptures like this are actually ignored because they can't be computed into the literal approach of the scriptures. That's because the Bible is a spiritual book written in parables in order to conceal spiritual truths by using some scriptures that appear to make sense and some that make no sense at all when taken just as they're written. I hope this helps.

[JehovahsWitness]

... there was only ever one way for God's elect to become saved throughout the history of the world. It was always by grace through the faith of Christ. As my opening support, I would like to put forth this passage:

Genesis 6:6–9 (KJV 1900)
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

WAS NOAH A CHRISTIAN?

The LORD here could not have been Jesus as Noah was born many thousands of years before Jesus came to earth.


GENESIS 6:8

American Standard Version
But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Noah found favor in the eyes of LORD JEHOVAH.

Literal Standard Version
And Noah found grace in the eyes of YHWH.

World English Bible
But Noah found favor in Yahweh's eyes.

Young's Literal Translation
And Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.

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