3 LEVELS OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE

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3 LEVELS OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE

Post #1

Post by Eddie Ramos »

The Bible is like no other book ever written. Inspired by God and penned by men over thousands of years, the Bible was written in such a way that it can be picked up and read by anyone as a regular book (as long as your translation existed at the time).

And because it's within our nature to assume that any book written, is done so, with the express purpose of being clear and concise, the natural inclination is that God wrote His Word in the same manner and so we must approach our reading of the Bible the same way.

1. THE HISTORICAL LEVEL
When we approach the Bible this way, we learn historical facts and truths of actual historical occurances, even supernatural ones (like the parting of the seas).


2. THE MORAL LEVEL

When we approach the Bible as any other book, we still learn moral truths which can help anyone and everyone who applies it, live a good moral life. We also learn that which displeased God.

3. THE SPIRITUAL LEVEL
When we approach the Bible in the same way as we do for the first two levels, at face value, by God's design, we then entirely miss the spiritual level meaning of the Bible because this level was set apart for God's true children, those with the Spirit of God within them. It is this level which God has concealed within the historical and moral levels, as they both contain the gospel message within it. This is what the Bibke means by telling us that the law (the whole Bible) is spiritual (Rom 7:14), and this is the truth concealed from the unsaved which they cannot understand.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (KJV)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned
.

Any rebuttals? If so, could you please do so with the scriptures?

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Re: 3 LEVELS OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE

Post #2

Post by Miles »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:36 pm The Bible is like no other book ever written. Inspired by God and penned by men over thousands of years, the Bible was written in such a way that it can be picked up and read by anyone as a regular book (as long as your translation existed at the time).

And because it's within our nature to assume that any book written, is done so, with the express purpose of being clear and concise, the natural inclination is that God wrote His Word in the same manner and so we must approach our reading of the Bible the same way.
With fear and trepidation lest we forget its many errors and contradictions.

ERRORS:

‘Sin on more’
A 1716 edition of the 17th-century King James version (known as the Party Bible – OK, no it isn’t) replaces “Sin no more” from Jeremiah 31:34 with “Sin on more”. There were 8,000 copies printed before anyone noticed.

‘Let the children first be killed’
This is very awkward. It’s Mark 7:27 and it’s supposed to be: “Let the children first be filled.” A 1795 edition of the King James version.

‘If the latter husband ate her’
Known as the Cannibal’s Bible (yes really), a 1682 printing alters this passage from Deuteronomy 24:3, which is meant to read: “If the latter husband hate her.”

CONTRADICTIONS:

Children of Adin

Ezra 2:15
The children of Adin, four hundred fifty and four.
Nehemiah 7:20
The children of Adin, six hundred fifty and five.


Age of Jehoiachin

2KI 24:8
Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
2CH 36:9
Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.


Seeing God

Genesis 32:30
“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” —
John 1:18
“No man hath seen God at any time…”–


The Power of God

Matthew 19:26

“… with God all things are possible.”
Judges 1:19
“…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.”


1. THE HISTORICAL LEVEL
When we approach the Bible this way, we learn historical facts and truths of actual historical occurances, even supernatural ones (like the parting of the seas).


2. THE MORAL LEVEL

When we approach the Bible as any other book, we still learn moral truths which can help anyone and everyone who applies it, live a good moral life. We also learn that which displeased God.

3. THE SPIRITUAL LEVEL
When we approach the Bible in the same way as we do for the first two levels, at face value, by God's design, we then entirely miss the spiritual level meaning of the Bible because this level was set apart for God's true children, those with the Spirit of God within them. It is this level which God has concealed within the historical and moral levels, as they both contain the gospel message within it. This is what the Bibke means by telling us that the law (the whole Bible) is spiritual (Rom 7:14), and this is the truth concealed from the unsaved which they cannot understand.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (KJV)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned
.

Any rebuttals? If so, could you please do so with the scriptures?
Okay, I'll bite.
When we approach the Bible this way, we learn historical facts and truths of actual historical occurances, even supernatural ones (like the parting of the seas).
And learn actual historical facts in error, such as those concerning nature.


Leviticus 11:13-19
13 “You must also treat some birds as things that are wrong to eat. Stay away from them. It is a sickening thought for you to eat any of these birds: eagles, vultures, buzzards, 14 kites, all kinds of falcons, 15 all kinds of black birds, 16 ostriches, nighthawks, sea gulls, all kinds of hawks, 17 owls, cormorants, great owls, 18 water hens, pelicans, carrion vultures, 19 storks, all kinds of herons, hoopoes, and bats.

Bats are not birds



Leviticus 11:4-6
4-6 but you must not eat camels, rock badgers, or rabbits. These must be considered unclean; they chew the cud, but do not have divided hoofs.

Rabbits do not even produce cud to chew


Leviticus 11:20-23
20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

Grasshoppers go on all six


Mark 4:31
31 It is like this. A man takes a mustard seed, the smallest seed in the world, and plants it in the ground.

The wolffia seed, orchid seed, and poppy seed are all smaller





Then, of course, there are the supposed Biblical events that never took place, such as the global flood (an event the Egyptians virtually next door would surely have noticed, but never mentioned.)

AND

1 Kings 6:1 has to be up there among the most obvious historical inaccuracies in the Bible, because it gives the year of an Exodus from Egypt as about 1440 BCE:

b]1 Kings 6:1[/b]
And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.

Even if there was an Exodus at all, the Armana letters show that around 1350 BCE, the Canaanite petty kings were still in full control of their land, under the close supervision of their Egyptian overlord, the Pharaoh. Other evidence shows that the Israelites were rural Canaanites who began to settle in small numbers in the Canaanite hinterland around 1250 BCE.


_______________________________________

When we approach the Bible as any other book, we still learn moral truths which can help anyone and everyone who applies it, live a good moral life. We also learn that which displeased God.
So it's okay to own others as property and freely beat them. How moral. :shock:

Leviticus 25:44-45
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property.

And pass them along to your sons, who may keep them forever.

Leviticus 25:46
You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.


In fact, you can even beat your slave as long as (s)he doesn't die within a day or two


Exodus 21:20-21
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.


Ah yes, Biblical morality; great for the slave owner, not so great for the slave.


____________________________________


When we approach the Bible in the same way as we do for the first two levels, at face value, by God's design, we then entirely miss the spiritual level meaning of the Bible because this level was set apart for God's true children, those with the Spirit of God within them.
First you have prove this "spiritual level" even exists. What's your evidence?

.

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Re: 3 LEVELS OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE

Post #3

Post by Eddie Ramos »

Miles wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:36 pm The Bible is like no other book ever written. Inspired by God and penned by men over thousands of years, the Bible was written in such a way that it can be picked up and read by anyone as a regular book (as long as your translation existed at the time).

And because it's within our nature to assume that any book written, is done so, with the express purpose of being clear and concise, the natural inclination is that God wrote His Word in the same manner and so we must approach our reading of the Bible the same way.

When we approach the Bible in the same way as we do for the first two levels, at face value, by God's design, we then entirely miss the spiritual level meaning of the Bible because this level was set apart for God's true children, those with the Spirit of God within them.
First you have prove this "spiritual level" even exists. What's your evidence?
Before we get into the "errors" you're putting forth, I feel it's necessary to address your last question first because not being able to see the spiritual aspect of the scriptures is the very reason you would be pointing out what seem like contradictions to you. And of course, I can't make you see (understand) what can only be seen (understood) by those who have the Spirit of God. Nevertheless, I will answer your question.

1. The true children of God have been given something that the rest of the world has not been given, the Spirit of God in their hearts.

Galatians 4:6 (KJV 1900)
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


2. God tells us that He has prepared things within his Word which no man can understand except those who have been given of His Spirit (i.e. salvation) and no one can understand these things unless they are revealed by God (to those who have His Spirit) in His own time.

1 Corinthians 2:9–12 (KJV 1900)
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


3. God's Spirit now works within the children of God to teach them things out of His Word that can only be discerned by having the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:13 (KJV 1900)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


4. These spiritual things are truths found within the Bible. These are things that the natural minded man can't perceive nor understand.

1 Corinthians 2:14–16 (KJV 1900)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


So, there is in fact a distinct difference between two types of people being described in the Bible, those who have the Spirit of God (salvation) within them and those who do not. There is, "he that is spiritual" and "the natural man", or the natural minded man. And yes, a natural minded man also includes all those who think they belong to God (are saved) yet they never did. God uses Bible teachers from the nation of Israel to teach this truth. Now, mind you, the nation of Israel was called "my chosen people" and "a holy nation" and "holy people".

Deuteronomy 7:6 (KJV 1900)
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.


Naturally, the Pharisees and Sadducees believed those things just as God had spoken and were sure that they belonged to God.

John 8:41 (KJV 1900)
(Jesus, speaking to the Pharisees said:) Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.


And why wouldn't they believe that they were a holy people unto God? That's exactly what the scriptures stated. It's because of reasons 1-4 as stated above. They couldn't see (understand) that the nation of Israel were a spiritual representation of the true people of God. They only understood that which was plainly written about them, yet they were miles from the truth. And so Christ explains to them why they don't understand his words (which again, has to do with points 1-4).

John 8:42–43 (KJV 1900)
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.


But they could obviously "hear" Jesus' words because they were dialoguing with him. SO, what did Jesus mean by telling them they couldn't "hear"? He meant they couldn't understand what he meant by what he said. These the spiritual truths within his words. That is what he meant every time he said:

Matthew 11:15 (KJV 1900)
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


He wasn't talking about physical ears nor physical hearing, but spiritual.

John 8:47 (KJV 1900)
He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

John 6:63 (KJV 1900)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Christ is the Word of God and here we see that his words are spirit words, or spiritual. In other words, the Word of God is a spiritual book. Once God's true children grasp this, they begin to notice this truth all throughout the scriptures because God first takes us by the hand and shows us this amazing truth. One example is when God gives us a historical record of Moses striking a rock and God causing water to come out for Israel to drink. And another time, God, miraculously, sends Israel food while in the wilderness. So, the natural minded man reads these events and thinks, "wow, great miracle". But, he that is spiritual, puts two and two together when God explains to the them these events, even though they truly, historically happened, have a greater spiritual meaning, because they point to the gospel which is the primary thread that runs through the entire Bible.

1 Corinthians 10:1–4 (KJV 1900)
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Spiritual, spiritual, spiritual. And God does this enough times that God's people get it and begin searching for the spiritual truth within the first two levels (the historical and moral) of the scriptures, and it always points us to the gospel.

Romans 7:14 (KJV 1900)
For we know that the law (the Bible) is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


This is the importance of being spiritually minded when we approach the Holy Word of God. But this gift has only been given to God's true people, the elect.

Romans 8:6 (KJV 1900)
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


1 Corinthians 14:1 (KJV 1900)
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.


Ephesians 1:3 (KJV 1900)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

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Re: 3 LEVELS OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE

Post #4

Post by Eddie Ramos »

Miles wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm ERRORS:
‘Sin on more’
A 1716 edition of the 17th-century King James version (known as the Party Bible – OK, no it isn’t) replaces “Sin no more” from Jeremiah 31:34 with “Sin on more”. There were 8,000 copies printed before anyone noticed.

‘Let the children first be killed’
This is very awkward. It’s Mark 7:27 and it’s supposed to be: “Let the children first be filled.” A 1795 edition of the King James version.

‘If the latter husband ate her’
Known as the Cannibal’s Bible (yes really), a 1682 printing alters this passage from Deuteronomy 24:3, which is meant to read: “If the latter husband hate her.”

The first problem is that you have to understand the difference between the inspired Word of God and all the many translations that have been written by man. The inspired Word of God is that which was written in it's original language of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. This is the Word that God told us that he would preserve pure for all generations.

Psalm 12:6–7 (KJV 1900)
6  The words of the LORD are pure words:
As silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
Thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


Translations, are just that, translations of the inspired Word of God and they are not inspired by God. This is why we have to check every Bible we use in our studies and compare those words which the translators chose to use, against the inspired Words. But why would the translated words be any different that the original words? Because in translating from language to another, word for word, it doesn't make the sentence clear to understand. And that's where each translated language has trouble, because they have to "adjust" each verse in order to make it (in their estimation) grammatically correct for the reader. And in doing so, they often have to add or even leave words out from the inspired Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek text. So, you cannot attempt discredit the Bible based on that argument.
Miles wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm CONTRADICTIONS:
Children of Adin

Ezra 2:15
The children of Adin, four hundred fifty and four.
Nehemiah 7:20
The children of Adin, six hundred fifty and five.
Another way people try and discredit the Bible is by pointing out what appear to them as contradictions. This probably gives them a sense of security (which is actually no security) that god is not real and neither are His Words. This assures them that mankind is free to live how they want to live without answering to a higher authority, but such is not the case. One of the things we learn from the scriptures is that God has never tried to convince unbelievers of his existence. He has created everyone in His likeness and image and has written his laws into our hearts.

Romans 2:14–15 (KJV 1900)
For when the Gentiles (the nations) , which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


Even the existence of God's creation (including mankind itself) is God's way of telling us that we all know that there is a God and creator to whom we are all accountable and therefore we have no excuse.

Romans 1:19–20 (KJV 1900)
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


But this doesn't mean that all mankind will openly acknowledge the existence of a supreme being and creator, instead, they become more rebellious and attempt to come up with other ways for this world and universe to have come to be. And another way or the existence of mankind. They try desperately to find any way that would leave God out of the equation, but it only results in them displaying their own foolishness and rebelliousness against God.

So, within the scriptures, God has worded some scriptures to seem like they contradict, this is done so that those who want to find a reason not to believe in the Bible, are given that vey opportunity. But for God's true children, we know that all the Bible agrees with itself and thus there are no real contradictions, only apparent ones. And when we come across them, we understand that it isn't God's Word that's faulty, rather it's our understanding of what God has written that is faulty. And as we study each apparent contradiction, we either learn how the Bible reconciles them, or we don't, because God hasn't revealed that to us yet. But we have no trouble walking by faith and not by sight, meaning, we have no trouble believing that God's inspired Word is being kept pure by God himself, as the scriptures declare, and we don't despair when we see something that causes us confusion in the scriptures.

The first apparent contradiction you posted was regarding the discrepancies between two texts from the records of 2 books of the Bible (which you posted above). But if you read the whole chapter, you will see that that is not the only discrepancy recorded. For example, here are a few more:

Ezra 2:5 (KJV 1900)
5 The children of Arah, seven hundred seventy and five. (775)
Nehemiah 7:10 (KJV 1900)
10 The children of Arah, six hundred fifty and two. (652)

Ezra 2:6 (KJV 1900)
6 The children of Pahath-moab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab, two thousand eight hundred and twelve. (2,812)
Nehemiah 7:11 (KJV 1900)
11 The children of Pahath-moab, of the children of Jeshua and Joab, two thousand and eight hundred and eighteen. (2,818)

Ezra 2:8 (KJV 1900)
8 The children of Zattu, nine hundred forty and five. (945)
Nehemiah 7:13 (KJV 1900)
13 The children of Zattu, eight hundred forty and five. (845)

Ezra 2:10 (KJV 1900)
10 The children of Bani, six hundred forty and two. (642)
Nehemiah 7:15 (KJV 1900)
15 The children of Binnui, six hundred forty and eight. (648)

Ezra 2:11 (KJV 1900)

11 The children of Bebai, six hundred twenty and three. (623)
Nehemiah 7:16 (KJV 1900)
16 The children of Bebai, six hundred twenty and eight. (628)

Ezra 2:12 (KJV 1900)

12 The children of Azgad, a thousand two hundred twenty and two. (2, 222)
Nehemiah 7:17 (KJV 1900)
17 The children of Azgad, two thousand three hundred twenty and two. (2,322)

Ezra 2:13 (KJV 1900)
13 The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six. (666)
Nehemiah 7:18 (KJV 1900)
18 The children of Adonikam, six hundred threescore and seven. (667)

Ezra 2:14 (KJV 1900)
14 The children of Bigvai, two thousand fifty and six. (2,056)
Nehemiah 7:19 (KJV 1900)
19 The children of Bigvai, two thousand threescore and seven. (2,067)

Ezra 2:15 (KJV 1900)
15 The children of Adin, four hundred fifty and four. (454)
Nehemiah 7:20 (KJV 1900)
20 The children of Adin, six hundred fifty and five. (655)

Ezra 2:17 (KJV 1900)

17 The children of Bezai, three hundred twenty and three. (323)
Nehemiah 7:23 (KJV 1900)
23 The children of Bezai, three hundred twenty and four. (324)

Ezra 2:19 (KJV 1900)
19 The children of Hashum, two hundred twenty and three. (223)
Nehemiah 7:22 (KJV 1900)
22 The children of Hashum, three hundred twenty and eight. (328)

Ezra 2:21–22 (KJV 1900)
21 The children of Beth-lehem, an hundred twenty and three. 22 The men of Netophah, fifty and six. (179)
Nehemiah 7:26 (KJV 1900)
26 The men of Beth-lehem and Netophah, an hundred fourscore and eight. (188)

Ezra 2:28 (KJV 1900)
28 The men of Beth-el and Ai, two hundred twenty and three. (223)
Nehemiah 7:32 (KJV 1900)
32 The men of Beth-el and Ai, an hundred twenty and three. (123)

Ezra 2:33 (KJV 1900)
33 The children of Lod, Hadid, and Ono, seven hundred twenty and five. (725)
Nehemiah 7:37 (KJV 1900)
37 The children of Lod, Hadid, and Ono, seven hundred twenty and one. (721)

Ezra 2:35 (KJV 1900)
35 The children of Senaah, three thousand and six hundred and thirty. (3,630)
Nehemiah 7:38 (KJV 1900)
38 The children of Senaah, three thousand nine hundred and thirty. (3,930)


This doesn't even include the accounting of the priests, and the list Nehemiah completely omits one entire family.

Ezra 2:30 (KJV 1900)
30 The children of Magbish, an hundred fifty and six. (156).


The natural man would look at these discrepancies and look no further for harmony but rather sets his own heart on believing that these are contradictions and is satisfied. But these are not at all contradictions because these are two different records of those who were brought back to Jerusalem and Judah. Nehemiah tells us that he found a record (very likely one of Ezra's records, but not the one found in Ezra chapter 2) of those who were brough back to Jerusalem and Judah after being carried away by king Nebuchadnezzar, whereas, Ezra's (chapter 2) record tells us that this record is for those who were carried away by king Nebuchadnezzar unto Babylon before being brough back to Jerusalem and Judah.

Ezra 2:1 (KJV 1900)
Now these are the children of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city;


The record Nehemiah found doesn't tell us where they were carried away before being brough back to Jerusalem and Judah, that's why it records different numbers for most families because they were most likely carried away to another place or for another purpose by the king.

Nehemiah 7:6 (KJV 1900)
6 These are the children of the province, that went up out of the captivity, of those that had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away, and came again to Jerusalem and to Judah, every one unto his city;

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Re: 3 LEVELS OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE

Post #5

Post by Eddie Ramos »

Miles wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm CONTRADICTIONS:

Age of Jehoiachin

2KI 24:8
Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
2CH 36:9
Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

Again, there is no contradiction here once we learn that, at times, in the bible, kings reigned together with their sons (you can call it a co-regency) for different reasons and for different periods of time. The first co-regency was that of Davis and Solomon. Solomon was made king while David the king was still alive because another one of David's sons was trying to make himself king because he was older than Solomon. So, David, while yet alive and king, made a proclamation to all that Solomon would be king. And so, Solomon was indeed made king and reigned with his father, king David, at the same time for a period of 4 years.

1 Kings 1:46–48 (KJV 1900)
And also Solomon sitteth on the throne of the kingdom. 47 And moreover the king’s servants (king Solomon's servants) came to bless our lord king David, saying, God make the name of Solomon better than thy name, and make his throne greater than thy throne. And the king bowed himself upon the bed. 48 And also thus said the king, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which hath given one to sit on my throne this day, mine eyes even seeing it.


Using the above understanding, we can harmonize the two ages recorded in the Bible for a king who reigned with his father, like Jehoiachin who was (according to 2 Chron 36:9) 8 years old when he began to reign, 3 months and 10 days after his father Jehoiakim ascended the throne. They reigned together for 10 years until Jehoiakim dies and Jehoiachin, at the age of 18, is left to rule alone as king. He of course didn't sit long on the throne before being deposed by the king of Babylon. According to 2 Kings 24:8, he only reigned alone for 3 months.

There are also co-recencies in the Bible between Asa and Jehoshaphat, Ahab and Ahaziah and Jehoshaphat and Jehoram.

Thus God is very precise with the numbers he uses in the Bible and we only need to trust His Word and seek out for proper understanding.

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Re: 3 LEVELS OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE

Post #6

Post by Miles »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:59 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:36 pm The Bible is like no other book ever written. Inspired by God and penned by men over thousands of years, the Bible was written in such a way that it can be picked up and read by anyone as a regular book (as long as your translation existed at the time).

And because it's within our nature to assume that any book written, is done so, with the express purpose of being clear and concise, the natural inclination is that God wrote His Word in the same manner and so we must approach our reading of the Bible the same way.

When we approach the Bible in the same way as we do for the first two levels, at face value, by God's design, we then entirely miss the spiritual level meaning of the Bible because this level was set apart for God's true children, those with the Spirit of God within them.
First you have prove this "spiritual level" even exists. What's your evidence?
Before we get into the "errors" you're putting forth, I feel it's necessary to address your last question first because not being able to see the spiritual aspect of the scriptures is the very reason you would be pointing out what seem like contradictions to you. And of course, I can't make you see (understand) what can only be seen (understood) by those who have the Spirit of God. Nevertheless, I will answer your question.

1. The true children of God have been given something that the rest of the world has not been given, the Spirit of God in their hearts.

Galatians 4:6 (KJV 1900)
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


2. God tells us that He has prepared things within his Word which no man can understand except those who have been given of His Spirit (i.e. salvation) and no one can understand these things unless they are revealed by God (to those who have His Spirit) in His own time.

1 Corinthians 2:9–12 (KJV 1900)
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


3. God's Spirit now works within the children of God to teach them things out of His Word that can only be discerned by having the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:13 (KJV 1900)
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


4. These spiritual things are truths found within the Bible. These are things that the natural minded man can't perceive nor understand.

1 Corinthians 2:14–16 (KJV 1900)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


So, there is in fact a distinct difference between two types of people being described in the Bible, those who have the Spirit of God (salvation) within them and those who do not. There is, "he that is spiritual" and "the natural man", or the natural minded man. And yes, a natural minded man also includes all those who think they belong to God (are saved) yet they never did. God uses Bible teachers from the nation of Israel to teach this truth. Now, mind you, the nation of Israel was called "my chosen people" and "a holy nation" and "holy people".

Deuteronomy 7:6 (KJV 1900)
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.


Naturally, the Pharisees and Sadducees believed those things just as God had spoken and were sure that they belonged to God.

John 8:41 (KJV 1900)
(Jesus, speaking to the Pharisees said:) Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.


And why wouldn't they believe that they were a holy people unto God? That's exactly what the scriptures stated. It's because of reasons 1-4 as stated above. They couldn't see (understand) that the nation of Israel were a spiritual representation of the true people of God. They only understood that which was plainly written about them, yet they were miles from the truth. And so Christ explains to them why they don't understand his words (which again, has to do with points 1-4).

John 8:42–43 (KJV 1900)
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.


But they could obviously "hear" Jesus' words because they were dialoguing with him. SO, what did Jesus mean by telling them they couldn't "hear"? He meant they couldn't understand what he meant by what he said. These the spiritual truths within his words. That is what he meant every time he said:

Matthew 11:15 (KJV 1900)
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


He wasn't talking about physical ears nor physical hearing, but spiritual.

John 8:47 (KJV 1900)
He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

John 6:63 (KJV 1900)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Christ is the Word of God and here we see that his words are spirit words, or spiritual. In other words, the Word of God is a spiritual book. Once God's true children grasp this, they begin to notice this truth all throughout the scriptures because God first takes us by the hand and shows us this amazing truth. One example is when God gives us a historical record of Moses striking a rock and God causing water to come out for Israel to drink. And another time, God, miraculously, sends Israel food while in the wilderness. So, the natural minded man reads these events and thinks, "wow, great miracle". But, he that is spiritual, puts two and two together when God explains to the them these events, even though they truly, historically happened, have a greater spiritual meaning, because they point to the gospel which is the primary thread that runs through the entire Bible.

1 Corinthians 10:1–4 (KJV 1900)
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Spiritual, spiritual, spiritual. And God does this enough times that God's people get it and begin searching for the spiritual truth within the first two levels (the historical and moral) of the scriptures, and it always points us to the gospel.

Romans 7:14 (KJV 1900)
For we know that the law (the Bible) is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


This is the importance of being spiritually minded when we approach the Holy Word of God. But this gift has only been given to God's true people, the elect.

Romans 8:6 (KJV 1900)
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


1 Corinthians 14:1 (KJV 1900)
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.


Ephesians 1:3 (KJV 1900)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
And why should I believe what your Bible says; a book filled with errors, contradictions, and lies, all supposedly created/inspired by a god who, himself, admits to making mistakes?

I shouldn't, and I don't.


.

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Re: 3 LEVELS OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE

Post #7

Post by Miles »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:47 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm CONTRADICTIONS:

Age of Jehoiachin

2KI 24:8
Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
2CH 36:9
Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

Again, there is no contradiction here once we learn that, at times, in the bible, kings reigned together with their sons (you can call it a co-regency) for different reasons and for different periods of time.
Poppycock, because it doesn't wash.

2 Kings 24:5
5 Everything that Jehoiakim did is recorded in The History of the Kings of Judah. 6 Jehoiakim died, and his son Jehoiachin succeeded him as king.

.

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Re: 3 LEVELS OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE

Post #8

Post by Eddie Ramos »

Miles wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:32 pm
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:47 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm CONTRADICTIONS:

Age of Jehoiachin

2KI 24:8
Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.
2CH 36:9
Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

Again, there is no contradiction here once we learn that, at times, in the bible, kings reigned together with their sons (you can call it a co-regency) for different reasons and for different periods of time.
Poppycock, because it doesn't wash.

2 Kings 24:5
5 Everything that Jehoiakim did is recorded in The History of the Kings of Judah. 6 Jehoiakim died, and his son Jehoiachin succeeded him as king.

.
For someone who doesn't believe the Bible is true and trustworthy from God, you seem to keep using it to try and prove your point, but that's ok. If you re-read my previous full reply to this, you'll see that both times (meaning when the ruling was done as a co-regency and when it was done alone) the Bible uses the same language. Jehoiachin reigned together with his father as king for 10 years, then when his father Jehoiachin died (1 Kings 24:6-8) Jehoiachin, his son, at the age of 18, reigned in his stead, but this time he reigned along as sole king. 10 years before that, Jehoiachin reigned along with his father at the age of 8 (remember the example of David and Solomon who ruled together).

Remember, no one verse stands alone in the Bible. That means that every relevant piece of scripture must be taken into account before arriving at any conclusion. Otherwise, trying to prove anything without being able to see the whole picture, would be like holding one piece of the puzzle and trying to determine what the whole picture is. That's not possible. But when all the pieces are put together, then we can see the bigger picture more clearly. I hope this helps.

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Re: 3 LEVELS OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE

Post #9

Post by Miles »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:12 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm ERRORS:
‘Sin on more’
A 1716 edition of the 17th-century King James version (known as the Party Bible – OK, no it isn’t) replaces “Sin no more” from Jeremiah 31:34 with “Sin on more”. There were 8,000 copies printed before anyone noticed.

‘Let the children first be killed’
This is very awkward. It’s Mark 7:27 and it’s supposed to be: “Let the children first be filled.” A 1795 edition of the King James version.

‘If the latter husband ate her’
Known as the Cannibal’s Bible (yes really), a 1682 printing alters this passage from Deuteronomy 24:3, which is meant to read: “If the latter husband hate her.”
The first problem is that you have to understand the difference between the inspired Word of God and all the many translations that have been written by man.
Glad to see you recognize how untrustworthy the Bible can be. Take Psalm 10:5 where it says:

........... "His ways are always grievous;" (KJ21)

Nice, but other Bibles don't see his way as grievous at all but rather as:

"Firm"
"Prosper"
"Secure"
"Twisted"
"Successful"
"Succeed"
"Prosperous"
"Endure"
"Well"
"Defouled"
"Pain"

Who you gonna believe, Ghost Busters? Why not? They're no worse.


The inspired Word of God is that which was written in it's original language of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. This is the Word that God told us that he would preserve pure for all generations.
So, just where is this Word that God told us that he would preserve pure for all generations? It certainly can't lie among the hundreds (thousands?) of various translations now in print. Truth is, there is no such thing. Every Bible is nothing more than a translation of a translation of a translation, with various biases thrown in from time to time so as to make it conform to the prevailing theology then in vogue. There simply are no original language Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek sources one can appeal to. So everyone is pretty much flying by the seat their pants when it comes to Biblical authenticity and authority.


Psalm 12:6–7 (KJV 1900)
6  The words of the LORD are pure words:
As silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
Thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
But, in which rendition of Psalm 10:5 above rest his "pure words?" ----I dare you.


Miles wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm CONTRADICTIONS:
Children of Adin

Ezra 2:15
The children of Adin, four hundred fifty and four.
Nehemiah 7:20
The children of Adin, six hundred fifty and five.
Another way people try and discredit the Bible is by pointing out what appear to them as contradictions.
Yup, and because that's just what they are; contradictions. The children of Arah simply can't add up to both seven hundred and seventy five, and six hundred fifty
So, how do you know which is correct? You can't know. The Bible is leading you astray. :mrgreen:

The first apparent contradiction you posted was regarding the discrepancies between two texts from the records of 2 books of the Bible (which you posted above). But if you read the whole chapter, you will see that that is not the only discrepancy recorded. For example, here are a few more:
EXCELLENT! You've finally come to see that the "truth" of the Bible isn't all it's cracked up to be. Not everything it says is true.

.

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Re: 3 LEVELS OF TRUTH IN THE BIBLE

Post #10

Post by Eddie Ramos »

Miles wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:23 pm
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:12 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm ERRORS:
‘Sin on more’
A 1716 edition of the 17th-century King James version (known as the Party Bible – OK, no it isn’t) replaces “Sin no more” from Jeremiah 31:34 with “Sin on more”. There were 8,000 copies printed before anyone noticed.

‘Let the children first be killed’
This is very awkward. It’s Mark 7:27 and it’s supposed to be: “Let the children first be filled.” A 1795 edition of the King James version.

‘If the latter husband ate her’
Known as the Cannibal’s Bible (yes really), a 1682 printing alters this passage from Deuteronomy 24:3, which is meant to read: “If the latter husband hate her.”
The first problem is that you have to understand the difference between the inspired Word of God and all the many translations that have been written by man.
Glad to see you recognize how untrustworthy the Bible can be. Take Psalm 10:5 where it says:

........... "His ways are always grievous;" (KJ21)

Nice, but other Bibles don't see his way as grievous at all but rather as:

"Firm"
"Prosper"
"Secure"
"Twisted"
"Successful"
"Succeed"
"Prosperous"
"Endure"
"Well"
"Defouled"
"Pain"

Who you gonna believe, Ghost Busters? Why not? They're no worse.


The inspired Word of God is that which was written in it's original language of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. This is the Word that God told us that he would preserve pure for all generations.
So, just where is this Word that God told us that he would preserve pure for all generations? It certainly can't lie among the hundreds (thousands?) of various translations now in print. Truth is, there is no such thing. Every Bible is nothing more than a translation of a translation of a translation, with various biases thrown in from time to time so as to make it conform to the prevailing theology then in vogue. There simply are no original language Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek sources one can appeal to. So everyone is pretty much flying by the seat their pants when it comes to Biblical authenticity and authority.


Psalm 12:6–7 (KJV 1900)
6  The words of the LORD are pure words:
As silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
Thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
But, in which rendition of Psalm 10:5 above rest his "pure words?" ----I dare you.


Miles wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:56 pm CONTRADICTIONS:
Children of Adin

Ezra 2:15
The children of Adin, four hundred fifty and four.
Nehemiah 7:20
The children of Adin, six hundred fifty and five.
Another way people try and discredit the Bible is by pointing out what appear to them as contradictions.
Yup, and because that's just what they are; contradictions. The children of Arah simply can't add up to both seven hundred and seventy five, and six hundred fifty
So, how do you know which is correct? You can't know. The Bible is leading you astray. :mrgreen:

The first apparent contradiction you posted was regarding the discrepancies between two texts from the records of 2 books of the Bible (which you posted above). But if you read the whole chapter, you will see that that is not the only discrepancy recorded. For example, here are a few more:
EXCELLENT! You've finally come to see that the "truth" of the Bible isn't all it's cracked up to be. Not everything it says is true.

.
Partially quoting me in order to make it agree with what you believe is no way to have a fair and proper discussion, even if you don't like what the Bible has to say. SO, you must not have read much of what I said because you're repeating the same arguments as before with trying to find fault in the translations. As I said before, no translation is without fault because it is only a translation, and I explained why before.

Now, concerning your comment that a translation is only taken from another translation. That is incorrect. Now, I haven't examined every modern translation (because they're only getting worse), but the KJV for example, is the closest to being as accurate as the original texts as possible, yet still, with it's faults. SO, it's not any translation that is preserved by God, but rather the original texts. That means that no matter how many times, the original text has been copied out, that God has taken it upon himself to preserve the text because that is his inspired word. If you look at an interlinear Bible, you will see the original text being used side by side with an English translation. The Masoretic Text and the Received Text are the names these inspired writings have been given for identification. This is the only "rendition" which God has preserved pure throughout the generations.

And the Bible will never lead a true child of God astray, only those who are not his are led astray.

John 10:26–28 (KJV 1900)
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


John 10:4–5 (KJV 1900)
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

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