How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1211

Post by Tcg »

otseng wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:37 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:42 am I certainly understand your reasoning here, but I still wonder if you have any ideas on the source of the information included in the early chapters of Genesis. The data that is provided about events before the creation of humans. What in your opinion would be the source of this information?
In my opinion, it would be various sources. Some would be direct revelation from God. This is clear from Moses speaking with God on mount Horeb/Sinai. Another source would be oral Hebrew sources, particularly historical events that predate Moses. Since Moses had an education in Egypt, it would also come from Egyptian written and oral sources. I was planning on talking more about that last point in the discussions on archaeology in which there is significant Egyptian language influence in the Torah.
I wonder then if you would consider the source of the story of the six days of creation in Genesis to be direct revelation from God? Well, at least for the days before the creation of humans. I can't imagine what the source could be if not God. Of course, this assumes an at least somewhat literal interpretation of these days. Not that they were strictly 24 hr. days, but that they were 6 periods of time. Please correct me if that is not your approach.


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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1212

Post by Diogenes »

Tcg wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:57 am I wonder then if you would consider the source of the story of the six days of creation in Genesis to be direct revelation from God? Well, at least for the days before the creation of humans. I can't imagine what the source could be if not God. Of course, this assumes an at least somewhat literal interpretation of these days. Not that they were strictly 24 hr. days, but that they were 6 periods of time. Please correct me if that is not your approach.
If was a god, it was a Sumerian or other Mesopotamian god. As I mentioned a post or two ago the first 11 chapters of Genesis were likely borrowed and used as general background. The Hebrew story doesn't get going until Chapter 12. https://www.penn.museum/sites/expeditio ... f-genesis/

Speiser's essay authoritatively shows that the author(s) of Genesis felt they needed some background, including a creation story and other myths to give context to their own story which starts with Abram (later Abraham). The central point is that this is not a work of supernatural authorship, but is solely crafted by men without the aid of some magical, invented 'spirit' to guide their hands.
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1213

Post by William »

Diogenes wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:25 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:57 am I wonder then if you would consider the source of the story of the six days of creation in Genesis to be direct revelation from God? Well, at least for the days before the creation of humans. I can't imagine what the source could be if not God. Of course, this assumes an at least somewhat literal interpretation of these days. Not that they were strictly 24 hr. days, but that they were 6 periods of time. Please correct me if that is not your approach.
If was a god, it was a Sumerian or other Mesopotamian god. As I mentioned a post or two ago the first 11 chapters of Genesis were likely borrowed and used as general background. The Hebrew story doesn't get going until Chapter 12. https://www.penn.museum/sites/expeditio ... f-genesis/

Speiser's essay authoritatively shows that the author(s) of Genesis felt they needed some background, including a creation story and other myths to give context to their own story which starts with Abram (later Abraham). The central point is that this is not a work of supernatural authorship, but is solely crafted by men without the aid of some magical, invented 'spirit' to guide their hands.
From the link;

YAHWEH | Shocking Truth Behind The Original Bible Story! Episode 3 - Paul Wallis & Mauro Biglino
138,141 views Premiered Aug 8, 2022 Episode 3 – Yahweh . In this episode Paul Wallis and Mauro Biglino present their research into the original translations and meanings of name Yahweh. The original Hebrew name for God
[44:44]
The final edit of the Old Testament of the Bible – the Hebrew Canon – included the layering of some beautiful and profound theology over the top of ancient texts.
Unfortunately mistranslating traumatic ancestral memories as if they were encounters with GOD is a choice with far reaching consequences.
Belief in a violent xenophobic hierarchical GOD has been used through the ages to justify violent wars and all manner of abuses.
However, the fidelity with which the ancient manuscripts have been curated in the Hebrew Canon by the countless generations of priests and scribes means that in our generation we can now return to these fascinating artifacts of our pre-history and ask how differently they might be translated…

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1214

Post by otseng »

Diogenes wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:36 pm
otseng wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:10 am
It's not exactly fair play to complain that people have failed to violate the rule of staying on topic.
What post are you referring to here?
Yours at #1195 is: what I quoted when I responded:
otseng wrote: ↑Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:26 pm
Even though it can contain errors, it would be major errors that impact doctrines that are consequential. And nobody yet has offered one in this entire thread.
[Diogenes:]
:D Sounds like an invitation to bring in some of the many contradictions and heresies of the New Testament.
That Jesus is not God, the so called 'trinity,' and my favorite full preterism since the NT is clear that Jesus would return 2000 years ago. He didn't.
I don't think anybody is complaining about your post here, so not why sure you wrote, "It's not exactly fair play to complain that people have failed to violate the rule of staying on topic."
As a broadly conceived setting for the Bible as a whole, Primeval History proves to be not only pre-Israelite in subject matter but in large part also non-Israelite in origin.
I don't dismiss it as a possibility. There are certainly parts of the Bible that comes from other cultures. But, if you want to deep dive into this, we can.
Tcg wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:57 am I wonder then if you would consider the source of the story of the six days of creation in Genesis to be direct revelation from God?
Yes, in my opinion, it would be a direct revelation from God.
Diogenes wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:25 amThe central point is that this is not a work of supernatural authorship, but is solely crafted by men without the aid of some magical, invented 'spirit' to guide their hands.
Again, in this thread, this is granted. No arguments are based on God needing to guide the hands of the authors.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:20 amYou don't have to explain why you hold this position, but does that about sum up your point.
Thus the Genesis account might have some details that God gave (revealed) but sadly not only do we not know which details are correct and/or of divine origin but we actually don't know if ANY of them are since God may well have revealed the details to the writer but unfortunately the latter misheard or heard correctly but wrote the detail down incorrectly
No, I do not hold this position. If you do want to reiterate my position, please quote my posts instead of someone else's.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1215

Post by Diogenes »

William wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:22 pm
Diogenes wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:25 am
Tcg wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:57 am I wonder then if you would consider the source of the story of the six days of creation in Genesis to be direct revelation from God? Well, at least for the days before the creation of humans. I can't imagine what the source could be if not God. Of course, this assumes an at least somewhat literal interpretation of these days. Not that they were strictly 24 hr. days, but that they were 6 periods of time. Please correct me if that is not your approach.
If was a god, it was a Sumerian or other Mesopotamian god. As I mentioned a post or two ago the first 11 chapters of Genesis were likely borrowed and used as general background. The Hebrew story doesn't get going until Chapter 12. https://www.penn.museum/sites/expeditio ... f-genesis/

Speiser's essay authoritatively shows that the author(s) of Genesis felt they needed some background, including a creation story and other myths to give context to their own story which starts with Abram (later Abraham). The central point is that this is not a work of supernatural authorship, but is solely crafted by men without the aid of some magical, invented 'spirit' to guide their hands.
Is this an example of how the Bible can be full of errors and yet still be reliable and authoritative or is it an example of the opposite?
From the link;

YAHWEH | Shocking Truth Behind The Original Bible Story! Episode 3 - Paul Wallis & Mauro Biglino
138,141 views Premiered Aug 8, 2022 Episode 3 – Yahweh . In this episode Paul Wallis and Mauro Biglino present their research into the original translations and meanings of name Yahweh. The original Hebrew name for God
[44:44]
The final edit of the Old Testament of the Bible – the Hebrew Canon – included the layering of some beautiful and profound theology over the top of ancient texts.
Unfortunately mistranslating traumatic ancestral memories as if they were encounters with GOD is a choice with far reaching consequences.
Belief in a violent xenophobic hierarchical GOD has been used through the ages to justify violent wars and all manner of abuses.
However, the fidelity with which the ancient manuscripts have been curated in the Hebrew Canon by the countless generations of priests and scribes means that in our generation we can now return to these fascinating artifacts of our pre-history and ask how differently they might be translated…
Is this video related to your 'Cosmic Mind' stuff? I watched some of it. It references 1 Samuel 15:2-3:
Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘....Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’
Naturally God is angry with Saul when he does not utterly destroy everything, but brings back the best of the cattle.

The video then claims 'Yahweh' and 'Elohim' don't stand for God, but for other gods, or space aliens or whatever and all other translations got it wrong.
Kind of weird, but it may be one way to avoid giving God the credit for killing animals, women, children and infants. :)
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1216

Post by William »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1215]

My opinion is that a supposed confusion of God-ideas as presented through the Bible because of human mismanagement of these concepts - through superimposing a nice God-idea over a cruel one - may be an incorrect assumption.

The idea of "Space Aliens" being involved is one natural enough explanation - I suppose - but think it may be an unnecessary one, if such can be explained without ET.

The underlying problem with The Christianity's has to do with explaining how the violent xenophobic hierarchical GOD of the OT became this - somewhat more approachable Fatherly Figure Jesus proclaimed GOD as being.

Reconciling the one with the other.

Is the violent xenophobic hierarchical GOD really a changed entity, or is the one false and the other true? Where is the inerrancy?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1217

Post by Diogenes »

[Replying to William in post #1216]
Whether there are multiple gods shrunk to one, then back to three it is all myth to me even before we get to the translation issues and Great Redactions in the 6th Century BCE Wallis talks about. Reliability despite errors does not come close to factoring into the equation. Why orthodoxy wants to insist on the obvious myths of the first 11 chapters of Genesis, obviously borrowed from earlier traditions is quite beyond me.

I expect that the six day creation story, the Garden of Eden, Noah's Ark and Floating Menagerie, the fanciful Tower of Babel and the rest make good picture stories for children and thus get melded into the consciousness of believers at a youthful and impressionable age; therefore tradition and imagery overcome reason and rationality.

Adding your space aliens and multiple gods or other entities does, I admit, make the whole thing even more entertaining, tho' at the expense of reality.

... now... back to that god that wanted all those children and infants killed.... :)
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1218

Post by William »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1217]

Whether there are multiple gods shrunk to one, then back to three it is all myth to me even before we get to the translation issues...
The understanding is not so much to do with what you yourself believe or do not believe as it is in the argument being made as to the authority of ancient script even as the mistakes are identified.
... now... back to that god that wanted all those children and infants killed....
Someone with the beliefs you have about the thread topic is someone I think of as really having no horse in that race.
Thus someone with no horse in that race - trying to place the focus solely on "that god that wanted all those children and infants killed" - is even less relative than someone trying to place the focus on "Space Aliens and the Bible", as far as I can ascertain.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1219

Post by Diogenes »

William wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:53 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #1217]

Whether there are multiple gods shrunk to one, then back to three it is all myth to me even before we get to the translation issues...
The understanding is not so much to do with what you yourself believe or do not believe as it is in the argument being made as to the authority of ancient script even as the mistakes are identified.
... now... back to that god that wanted all those children and infants killed....
Someone with the beliefs you have about the thread topic is someone I think of as really having no horse in that race.
Thus someone with no horse in that race - trying to place the focus solely on "that god that wanted all those children and infants killed" - is even less relative than someone trying to place the focus on "Space Aliens and the Bible", as far as I can ascertain.
"Relative?" Did you mean "relevant?" At any rate, I am not sure what your point is with this video of Wallis and his video or how it has anything to do with this subtopic. Nor do I understand the relevancy of horses in races, or my personal views. Here the topic is "How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?"

My point re: that question is that your posted video suggests all translations of the Bible are wrong and that instead we should trust those of Paul Wallis, author of Escaping from Eden: Does Genesis Teach that the Human Race was Created by God or Engineered by ETs? and "Humans Were Created By Aliens According To Genesis."
https://www.audible.com/pd/Paul-Wallis- ... B09H4S9G23
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1220

Post by JehovahsWitness »

otseng wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:56 pm.... If you do want to reiterate my position, please quote my posts instead of someone else's.
Fair enough ...

otseng wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:10 am

Don't really want to get too deep into debating inerrancy in this thread. But what I mainly argue for is the term "inerrant" should no longer be used.
otseng wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:21 am Exactly. That is one primary reason I think the term inerrancy should be discarded.
  • Since most Christian groups only attach inerrancy to the original script, why would you not want to keep the term for that?
  • Is your position that the original script was not inerrant or only that it (or parts of it) may have been but this is unprovable?
(Or is there some other reason why you wish the term {quote} "discarded"?)

otseng wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:56 pm
Tcg wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:57 am I wonder then if you would consider the source of the story of the six days of creation in Genesis to be direct revelation from God?
Yes, in my opinion, it would be a direct revelation from God.

  • Theologically, how can the belief in an omnipotent and inerrant God be reconciled with divine revelation which from its initial recording (ie the original script) was not inerrant*?
* thus necessitating we "disregard" the use of the term inerrant to describe any part of the production of holy scripture
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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