Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

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Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Do you believe in fate* or destiny*?
Why or why not?
Are they even possible?
Why or why not?

*FATE defined here as: you do as 'something' more powerful than you has outlined for your life at every minute; DESTINY defined here: as you eventually end up at specific increments where 'something' more powerful than you designed for you to be.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

Post #11

Post by AgnosticBoy »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:48 am Do you believe in fate* or destiny*?
Why or why not?
Are they even possible?
Why or why not?

*FATE defined here as: you do as 'something' more powerful than you has outlined for your life at every minute; DESTINY defined here: as you eventually end up at specific increments where 'something' more powerful than you designed for you to be.
This is related to the topic of free-will.

I don't accept fate nor destiny as you describe it. Perhaps if it could be scaled down to varying degrees, which would be relative to the the degree of control that we can exert in our lives, then I can see it having some merit. I believe I can choose between many different paths for life. The scientific fact that we can modify behavior (although to some extent for now given our current knowledge, although I don't discount gene modification) shows that we can choose different paths. WE can put in place rewards and punishment to encourage or discourage behavior. Under the most stringent form of determinism, I'd expect even this aspect to be fixed but it's not. Therefore I don't accept that we're living in a Universe where everything is completely determined or destined.
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nobspeople
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Re: Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

Post #12

Post by nobspeople »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:14 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:48 am Do you believe in fate* or destiny*?
Why or why not?
Are they even possible?
Why or why not?

*FATE defined here as: you do as 'something' more powerful than you has outlined for your life at every minute; DESTINY defined here: as you eventually end up at specific increments where 'something' more powerful than you designed for you to be.
This is related to the topic of free-will.

I don't accept fate nor destiny as you describe it. Perhaps if it could be scaled down to varying degrees, which would be relative to the the degree of control that we can exert in our lives, then I can see it having some merit. I believe I can choose between many different paths for life. The scientific fact that we can modify behavior (although to some extent for now given our current knowledge, although I don't discount gene modification) shows that we can choose different paths. WE can put in place rewards and punishment to encourage or discourage behavior. Under the most stringent form of determinism, I'd expect even this aspect to be fixed but it's not. Therefore I don't accept that we're living in a Universe where everything is completely determined or destined.
I suspect some may say that there are specific paths available to you. By you simply picking one of them, you're still picking something that was 'planned' for you, even as a possibility. Maybe that's what you meant by saying "...I don't accept that we're living in a Universe where everything is completely determined or destined."?

It may not be totally applicable, but I find it interesting that people who are related in some way (by family, being born on same day at same hospital, etc) that haven't ever met, can be drawn to the same thing, have the same interests, etc.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

Post #13

Post by DANBO27 »

I reckon Destiny is a real thing.
A drunken car-wreck could've been avoided, if I'd obeyed my intuition...
32 sober years later, I cannot right that wrong.

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Re: Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

Post #14

Post by DANBO27 »


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Re: Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

Post #15

Post by Purple Knight »

Fate and Destiny are just plain old ugly determinism, dressed up nice for the prom. She's as true as she is fat and ugly, and maybe because of that, people tend to ignore her most of the time.

It may be that I'm channeling a penguin, saying it like that, but I reckon it's a good metaphor.

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Re: Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

Post #16

Post by William »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:18 am Fate and Destiny are just plain old ugly determinism, dressed up nice for the prom. She's as true as she is fat and ugly, and maybe because of that, people tend to ignore her most of the time.

It may be that I'm channeling a penguin, saying it like that, but I reckon it's a good metaphor.
Even so - Ugly is just "in the eye of the beholder" as is Beauty.

Both are judgement calls and Opinions are like Mirrors

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Re: Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

Post #17

Post by Tcg »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:48 am Do you believe in fate* or destiny*?
Of course not.
Why or why not?
Because both or either would require a something of someone the be in charge and there is zero sufficient evidence to accept either.
Are they even possible?
Why or why not?
Absent any presentation of verifiable evidence that they are we'd have to conclude, no they aren't.

Some seem to draw comfort from the idea that there's something or someone in charge of everything. The comfort they receive from this concept isn't evidence that what they draw comfort from has any basis in reality.


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Re: Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

Post #18

Post by 2ndRateMind »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:48 am Do you believe in fate* or destiny*?
Why or why not?
Are they even possible?
Why or why not?

*FATE defined here as: you do as 'something' more powerful than you has outlined for your life at every minute; DESTINY defined here: as you eventually end up at specific increments where 'something' more powerful than you designed for you to be.
Invictus

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.

By William Earnest Henley (circa 1875 AD)

A favourite poem of mine. Of course, if we are truly masters of our fates, as I believe, then fate is illusory. Fate is a destiny that happens whatever we may choose to do or not do.

Interesting, however, that God's omniscience is quite compatible with the concept of fate. If God knows everything, He must know the future. If God knows the future, it must be fixed - or in other words, fate.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Sun Aug 28, 2022 4:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost

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Re: Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

Post #19

Post by DJT_47 »

I just posted this in a similar thread.

Predestination (based upon the foreknowledge of God)

Premise: God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time.

Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination.

Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets. So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate).

This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.

If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God.

Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Rom 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

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Re: Fate. Destiny. Real or not?

Post #20

Post by 2ndRateMind »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:14 pm
nobspeople wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:48 am Do you believe in fate* or destiny*?
Why or why not?
Are they even possible?
Why or why not?

*FATE defined here as: you do as 'something' more powerful than you has outlined for your life at every minute; DESTINY defined here: as you eventually end up at specific increments where 'something' more powerful than you designed for you to be.
This is related to the topic of free-will.

I don't accept fate nor destiny as you describe it. Perhaps if it could be scaled down to varying degrees, which would be relative to the the degree of control that we can exert in our lives, then I can see it having some merit. I believe I can choose between many different paths for life. The scientific fact that we can modify behavior (although to some extent for now given our current knowledge, although I don't discount gene modification) shows that we can choose different paths. WE can put in place rewards and punishment to encourage or discourage behavior. Under the most stringent form of determinism, I'd expect even this aspect to be fixed but it's not. Therefore I don't accept that we're living in a Universe where everything is completely determined or destined.
Just as it has implications for free-will, a fixed, pre-determined fate has implications for God's alleged omniscience, if one takes the naive view that omniscience means 'knows everything'. If fate is fixed, God can know everything. If it isn't, God cannot know the future, because it hasn't happened yet, and isn't determined. Of course, we can be sure that God is better at predicting the future than we are, but certain knowledge of it? That's a whole different matter. My way of dealing with this conundrum - for now - is to interpret omniscience as 'God knows everything that can be known.' Which doesn't include the future.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Non omnes qui errant pereunt
Not all who wander are lost

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