Ancient morality

[Willum]

Transponder and the nice centurion felt it necessary to pollute the original topic,
So here it is, reposted, hopefully they will carry on on that one, and the rest of us can discuss the subject.

Please note, challenging assumptions is one thing, destroying a topic because of your own personal ignorance, is rude, and not at all nice.

The Ancient Greeks recognized the immorality of Zeus; who sent floods, plagues, enacted cruel transformations, etc., and the Greeks responded by labeling Zeus and the other gods immoral.
They further responded by creating a code of morality for people that did not involve deities.

The Greeks saw their gods without morals, and so created their own.

Whereas the Ancient Hebrew and modern day Judaists and Christians see identical or similar acts by their god, and rather then decry these acts as malevolent, defend them as being benevolent.

For debate: The Ancient Greeks were more mature and moral than modern Judaists and Christians.

[1213]

...
The Ancient Greeks recognized the immorality of Zeus; who sent floods, plagues, enacted cruel transformations, etc., and the Greeks responded by labeling Zeus and the other gods immoral.
They further responded by creating a code of morality for people that did not involve deities.

The Greeks saw their gods without morals, and so created their own.

Whereas the Ancient Hebrew and modern day Judaists and Christians see identical or similar acts by their god, and rather then decry these acts as malevolent, defend them as being benevolent.

For debate: The Ancient Greeks were more mature and moral than modern Judaists and Christians.

By what I know, Greeks gods were arbitrary and biased, which is why I can agree that they had no moral. But I don't think the same is with Bible God. Bible God is just and righteous. He can punish, but there is always good and just reason for that. And I think it would be morally wrong not to end evil.

[TRANSPONDER]

Sorry for going off topic - it does happen. And it looks like drifting off this topic to the original one. My point was that the Greeks had a lot of admirable points. Humanism in artform, empirical investigation in science/Philosophy, the experiment in Democracy. One of the most interesting things is Athenian comedy where everything (almost) could be lampooned - even the gods. 'The Clouds' takes the rise out of Philosophy as a load of waffle, at best nonsense, at worst, dangerous. In a way that is just as relevant today. But Aristophanes makes Socrates the primary target of his barbed wit and ends up saying that Philosophers deserve death because they have blasphemed the gods. So, no surprise, I'm against the reactionary Theism of Aristophanes and with the skeptical - critical philosophers. And so, it seems, is the consensus as the judicial murder of Socrates by a Theist elite who would not tolerate challenge is just as much a tragedy as the crucifixion of Jesus. Though doesn't have a church to rub it in our faces daily and tell us we somehow owe the church something because the crucifixion was somehow our fault.

So the point is raised that the humanlike characteristics of ther gods make them seem very far from perfect. And yet the idea seems to have been put about that they were good and perfect and anyone who said different was a wicked person deserving of death, if only the Theists had the political control.

This is contrasted with Biblegod who is good and just when clearly He isn't on any level of morals that humans understand today, and we know all the theist attempts at evasion:

God's morality is different (and implied, better).
We had it coming
God can do whatever he likes.

None of those are valid. What morality would we have written on our hearts but the morality that God Himself uses?
That we deserved this stuff like obliterating all creation because we kept God awake by partying till 4 in the morning is rubbish as God repented of what he's done and swore never to do a Flood again, but slaughtering a tribe of His people because they preferred to stay out of a civil war is disgusting.

The only place to end up (other than fingers in the ears denial) is to bite the bullet and go full Dictator: "God can do what he likes, and you'd better fall in line and grovel or he'll do for you." Disgusting.

Clearly the claim that God is good and Just while the Greek gods were not will not hold water and I just did my stab at demolition of the stock excuses.

Bottom line, Biblegod is not much better than the Greek gods, and the apologetics are no better and the results and danger of letting religious protectionism take social and political hold are just as likely to be bad today as they were back in the 4th century. Use you vote wiser that the Athenians used theirs.

[The Nice Centurion]

Transponder and the nice centurion felt it necessary to pollute the original topic,
So here it is, reposted, hopefully they will carry on on that one, and the rest of us can discuss the subject.

Hard to discuss a subject built on false premises.
Yours is the first hread I encountered in this forum that made me feel that way.
I asked for proof for your assumpted speculations on which you build your debate question. You never answered.

Please note, challenging assumptions is one thing, destroying a topic because of your own personal ignorance, is rude, and not at all nice.

Pöease note that you were always free to defend your assumptions, yet you avoid that like plague.

The Ancient Greeks recognized the immorality of Zeus; who sent floods, plagues, enacted cruel transformations, etc., and the Greeks responded by labeling Zeus and the other gods immoral.
They further responded by creating a code of morality for people that did not involve deities.

Highly doubtable! Proof?

The Greeks saw their gods without morals, and so created their own.

Highly doubtable! Proof?

Whereas the Ancient Hebrew and modern day Judaists and Christians see identical or similar acts by their god, and rather then decry these acts as malevolent, defend them as being benevolent.

I dont know for ancient hebrews. Hollywood bible movies are not history. In fact their god himself regrets. Not even he can therefore think himself to be all moral. Modern chrystians are forced to do so by critics.

For debate: The Ancient Greeks were more mature and moral than modern Judaists and Christians.

How is one to debate a question that builds on false premises? First defend this premises at last in your second thread. Two false dont make one right!

[Willum]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #4]

As mentioned, you are not an authority to dismiss premises based on your hubris, AND I don’t recall you providing evidence to the contrary.

I do recall predicting you would invoke your ignorance as a reason to dismiss the topic, then state the few,of many references I provided would be insufficient for your lordship.
So…
I gave you a topic to deface all over and you come over to do this one too.
I guess your avoidance and terror of the subject is the reason.

[The Nice Centurion]

By what I know, Greeks gods were arbitrary and biased, which is why I can agree that they had no moral.

That is a darling christian view and is promoted in the HERCULES Kevin Sorbo series. No wonder he ended up as christian propaganda evil atheist in God is not dead 1.

But I don't think the same is with Bible God. Bible God is just and righteous. He can punish, but there is always good and just reason for that. And I think it would be morally wrong not to end evil.

Why then gives it todays christians so many headaches to explain their gods crimes as perfectly moral.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #4]

I gave you a topic to deface all over and you come over to do this one too.
I guess your avoidance and terror of the subject is the reason.

Indeed if someone clearly avoids to give proof for wild speculations stated as facts I feel red flags rising.

And I never went off topic, exactly according to your wish. Transponder also stayed in topic right before me.

[Willum]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

Speaking to the fact that you have not acknowledged the issues of the debate hardly lends your opinion credibility.

You have simply said that the Greeks had more insight than you do, and thousands of years ago.

Go again?

[Willum]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #7]

Quoted Caesar, quoted others, can quote many more, except they are all insufficient to your most highness. YOU failed to provide any references supporting your objection.
You lost your objection, but insisted your ego was sufficient judge.
I didn’t agree.

Then you came over to this topic to defecate on it too, unacceptable, rude and childish.

You could be blathering on that topic.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #7]

Quoted Caesar, quoted others, can quote many more, except they are all insufficient to your most highness. YOU failed to provide any references supporting your objection.
You lost your objection, but insisted your ego was sufficient judge.
I didn’t agree.

I waited for that. But sadly the one who makes an assumption who is him who should prove it. Not the doubters.
And you should prove it not only with links. Hey and I didnt know Caesar was greek.

Then you came over to this topic to defecate on it too, unacceptable, rude and childish.

You could be blathering on that topic.

Manners, pal! Try to stay on topic, please.