ADAM WAS NOT DECIEVED - THE SPIRITUAL REASON WHY

[Eddie Ramos]

The message of the gospel is the central thread which runs through every account in the Bible. The problem is that because the gospel is the spiritual message of the Bible, it is often concealed within the literal account of historical events in the Bible. The Bible refers to is as the spiritual meaning which can be seen by God's people if they search for it. One such example is that of the fall of Adam and Eve. On the surface, we see the serpent talking with Eve. But why did Satan specifically go after Eve and not Adam? Because of who each of them represent spiritually. The Bible tells us that Adam was a figure or typified Christ.

Romans 5:14 (KJV 1900)
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Since Adam spiritually represented Christ, then Eve (Adam's wife) represented the bride of Christ (the true believers).

2 Corinthians 11:2 (KJV 1900)
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Using this spiritual comparison, now we can see why Satan targeted Eve, because Eve, the wife (like the true believers) was the weaker vessel.

Thus Satan deceived Eve into sinning. Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't.

1 Timothy 2:14 (KJV 1900)
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Well, if Adam was not deceived, then why did he also sin? Well, if we keep the spiritual picture in mind of who they represent, then this scripture comes to mind.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV 1900)
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Adam was not deceived into sinning, he sinned willingly because his wife sinned. In other words, he who knew no sin (like Christ) became sin because his wife (the true believers) had become sin. And his punishment was death.

Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV 1900)
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Can anyone see the spiritual picture of the gospel in the account of the fall of mankind per the scriptures?

[Eddie Ramos]

In other words, he who knew no sin (like Christ) became sin because his wife (the true believers) had become sin. And his punishment was death.

The wages for sin is the second death in Revelation:

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

If you took the time to actually quote the verse you are quoting, then you will see that you need correction in this first before you can develop proper doctrine.

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death and the second death are not the same deaths. That's why it's called the second death. But the wages of sin being death, encompasses both deaths. What then is the first death? It's the death that mankind experienced in Adam.

Romans 5:12 (KJV 1900)
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 3:23 (KJV 1900)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

So, because Adam's sin brought sin upon everyone who was begotten of him, the whole human race (except for Christ), that means that everyone became guilty of sin and as a result, they were born dead. This means that they were born with a dead soul while being physically alive.

This is exactly what God meant when he told Adam that the day he would eat thereof, he would surely die. Yet Adam ate and lived for 930 years. What then did God mean by dying the day he would eat thereof? He meant his soul.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV 1900)
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

So, to be physically alive yet spiritually dead, is what has been appointed for all of mankind.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV 1900)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This death is not our physical death for not all men have died (like Enoch and Elijah) and not all men will die (like those who will be alive and remain in the last day). But everyone who has ever been conceived of a man and a woman, has died spiritually. This is what everyone was appointed to because of Adam's sin.

The second death takes place at the end of the world when God casts hell and death into the lake of fire and completely destroys this creation and everyone in it who was never saved. The lake of fire is not a literal place but spiritually points to the final wrath of God's Word because God himself is a consuming fire.

Hebrews 12:29 (KJV 1900)
For our God is a consuming fire.

It's God's very Word (the written scriptures) that is judging mankind for their sin. And God likens his word to brimstone, which is exactly what the lake of fire consists of.

Revelation 19:20 (KJV 1900)
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Isaiah 30:33 (KJV 1900)
33  For Tophet is ordained of old;
Yea, for the king it is prepared;
He hath made it deep and large:
The pile thereof is fire and much wood;
The breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

The breath of God is describing the scriptures which comes from the breath of God (2 Tim 3:16).

John 12:48 (KJV 1900)
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And the judgment of course is death.

[Eddie Ramos]

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)[/color]

When did Jesus undergo His second death to pay the punishment for sinning.

Jesus never died the second death, this is the importance of quoting Romans 6:23 correctly. Only the unsaved and the fallen angels undergo the second death which is at the end of this world. But Jesus did undergo death, which is the payment that God's law demanded. And upon satisfying the requirements of his own law, and because he is God, death could not hold him like it holds the unsaved who die physically.

Acts 2:24 (KJV 1900)
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

So, in raising from the dead, Christ was then declared to be the Son of God.

Romans 1:4 (KJV 1900)
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

SO, when did Christ undergo the death that the law of God required in order to pay for the sins of those whose sins he took upon himself? It was before the world was created.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV 1900)
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV 1900)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (THROUGH) Christ Jesus before the world began,

Christ's birth and death on the cross in 33 A.D. was a demonstration (a manifestation) of what had already taken place before the world began.

1 Peter 1:20 (KJV 1900)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

[JehovahsWitness]

WERE ADAM AND EVE "SET UP TO FAIL"?

Genesis 2:15
15 The Lord God put the man in the Garden of Eden to work the soil and take care of the garden. 16 The Lord God gave him this command: “You may eat from any tree in the garden. 17 But you must not eat from the tree that gives knowledge about good and evil. If you eat fruit from that tree, on that day you will certainly die!”

Today all humans are imperfect meaning we have a natural inclination to disobey and are incapable of keeping God's law perfectly. Like a shopping trolly with a wonky leg, we "bear to the left" and constantly have to reajust our actions to stay in line with God's standards. Adam and Eve however had no such defect. In fact they had to "force" themselves to do wrong since scripture says they were created in His (God's) image. Adam and Eve where therefore like God himself in some ways and doing good was far from impossible.

Are perfect people capable of perfect obediance?

Until Jesus there would be no way to settle this question. All humans have been born imperfect (see above). Jesus however proved once and for all time that perfect obediance is indeed possible from a perfect human thus Adam and Eve were capable, had they been determined to, to stay loyal and obey the law. Furthermore, although we don't know how long Adam and Eve had been alive the bible indicates they lived for thousands of years, so reasonably they had had many our our "lifetimes" to get to know their creator (whose voice they could hear directly) and learn about his character and purpose.

Further faithful IMPERFECT individuals have since proved that even under the thread of toruture and death, disobedience to God is far from inevitable.

1. Who here has any reason to believe Adam knew what "you will certainly die!” meant? From what we can gather from the story Adam had no concept of death or dying.
viewtopic.php?p=849053#p849053


2. In as much as god is omnicient wouldn't he have known that A & E would eat the apple before he even created the two?
viewtopic.php?p=967763#p967763

3. So why did god create two individuals and then set them up to fail? Entertainment perhaps?
viewtopic.php?p=1089026#p1089026

But lacking any concept of "sin," how could Adam have "sinned willingly ...? Never having been exposed to the notion of sin/sinning, the concept would be completely foreign to them both.
viewtopic.php?p=1084533#p1084533

Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?
viewtopic.php?p=967763#p967763

Would God not EXPECT his law to be broken ? ("set up To fail")
viewtopic.php?p=1089025#p1089025

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, THE ORIGINAL SIN and ...THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD

[Miles]

.

A few questions regarding

Genesis 2:15
15 The Lord God put the man in the Garden of Eden to work the soil and take care of the garden. 16 The Lord God gave him this command: “You may eat from any tree in the garden. 17 But you must not eat from the tree that gives knowledge about good and evil. If you eat fruit from that tree, on that day you will certainly die!”

1. Who here has any reason to believe Adam knew what "you will certainly die!” meant? From what we can gather from the story Adam had no concept of death or dying, in which case god's warning is pretty stupid.

It may seem that way to you if you disregard the nature of the scriptures as being holy and parabolic and historically accurate. When God created man, he created him with the ability to understand and reason and make decisions, whether of obedience or disobedience. According to your argument, Adam would not even have a concept of what eating was since the text doesn't specify that he did. But we know that Adam and Eve did have understanding of the both the limits of their permission and the consequences of their disobedience, as reiterated by Eve.

Eating is a whole different animal. It's a response to hunger, which isn't driven by understanding, but by physiological mechanisms.

"When our blood glucose levels drop, the pancreas and liver generate a number of chemical signals that induce hunger (Konturek et al., 2003; Novin, Robinson, Culbreth, & Tordoff, 1985) and thus initiate feeding behavior. As blood glucose levels increase, the pancreas and liver send signals to shut off hunger and eating (Drazen & Woods, 2003; Druce, Small, & Bloom, 2004; Greary, 1990). The food’s passage through the gastrointestinal tract also provides important satiety signals to the brain (Woods, 2004), and fat cells release leptin, a satiety hormone."
source

So, while huger is physiologically driven and can only be satiated by eating, death and dying are no such things. To be meaningful the concept of death first needs to be understood, something that's never mentioned, and can't be taken for granted as happening, in Genesis. Lacking any clues from god, their hunger would have eventually driven them to trying all kinds of things to eat, whereas there was no driving need to know what death is.

2. In as much as god is omniscient wouldn't he have known that A & E would eat the apple before he even created the two? Sure he would.

Absolutely he did. The garden of Eden and the forbidden tree was a test for mankind to see who they would obey.

A "test" with a foregone conclusion. God, being omniscient, knew full well who A&E would obey, and that they would end up eating the apple.

3. So why did god create two individuals and then set them up to fail? Entertainment perhaps?

God not only knew what would happen, but he also allowed it to happen so that the history of the world would unfold

And couldn't some other history of the world have developed? Of course it could have. So my question remains, why did god choose this rather flawed scenario to unfold? Personally, because he admittedly creates evil (Isaiah 45:7,) and is less than moral, I think he gets a kick out of watching people suffer.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

DID ADAM & EVE EAT FROM THE FORBIDDEN TREE BECAUSE THEY WERE HUNGRY AND HAD NOTHING ELSE TO EAT?

GENESIS 2: 9 , 16, 17

Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. [....] Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

ADAM &EVE, .THE GARDEN OF EDEN and ...THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD

[1213]

Because the Bible teaches us to look for the gospel message in every account of the scriptures...

Sorry, I don't think that is true.

[Eddie Ramos]

...... Furthermore, although we don't know how long Adam and Eve had been alive the bible indicates they lived for thousands of years, so reasonably they had had many our our "lifetimes" to get to know their creator (whose voice they could hear directly) and learn about his character and purpose.

The Bible does tell us how long Adam lived, and it wasn't thousands of years, it was 930.

[i]Genesis 5:5 (KJV) 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died[/i].

There is a false notion that's been widely accepted which states that God did not begin keeping track of time before the fall of man, but only after. But such idea is found nowhere in the Bible. But from every evidence the Bible provides, we can be sure that God began keeping track of time "in the beginning " (Gen 1:1). That is, in the beginning of time. God begins keeping track of time from the first day (which is measuring time) forward.

Genesis 1:14 (KJV) 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Thus Adam, being created on the 6th day, lived for 930 years, meaning that's how long he was alive.

[Eddie Ramos]

.

A few questions regarding

Genesis 2:15
15 The Lord God put the man in the Garden of Eden to work the soil and take care of the garden. 16 The Lord God gave him this command: “You may eat from any tree in the garden. 17 But you must not eat from the tree that gives knowledge about good and evil. If you eat fruit from that tree, on that day you will certainly die!”

1. Who here has any reason to believe Adam knew what "you will certainly die!” meant? From what we can gather from the story Adam had no concept of death or dying, in which case god's warning is pretty stupid.

It may seem that way to you if you disregard the nature of the scriptures as being holy and parabolic and historically accurate. When God created man, he created him with the ability to understand and reason and make decisions, whether of obedience or disobedience. According to your argument, Adam would not even have a concept of what eating was since the text doesn't specify that he did. But we know that Adam and Eve did have understanding of the both the limits of their permission and the consequences of their disobedience, as reiterated by Eve.

Eating is a whole different animal. It's a response to hunger, which isn't driven by understanding, but by physiological mechanisms.

"When our blood glucose levels drop, the pancreas and liver generate a number of chemical signals that induce hunger (Konturek et al., 2003; Novin, Robinson, Culbreth, & Tordoff, 1985) and thus initiate feeding behavior. As blood glucose levels increase, the pancreas and liver send signals to shut off hunger and eating (Drazen & Woods, 2003; Druce, Small, & Bloom, 2004; Greary, 1990). The food’s passage through the gastrointestinal tract also provides important satiety signals to the brain (Woods, 2004), and fat cells release leptin, a satiety hormone."
source

So, while huger is physiologically driven and can only be satiated by eating, death and dying are no such things. To be meaningful the concept of death first needs to be understood, something that's never mentioned, and can't be taken for granted as happening, in Genesis. Lacking any clues from god, their hunger would have eventually driven them to trying all kinds of things to eat, whereas there was no driving need to know what death is.

2. In as much as god is omniscient wouldn't he have known that A & E would eat the apple before he even created the two? Sure he would.

Absolutely he did. The garden of Eden and the forbidden tree was a test for mankind to see who they would obey.

A "test" with a foregone conclusion. God, being omniscient, knew full well who A&E would obey, and that they would end up eating the apple.

3. So why did god create two individuals and then set them up to fail? Entertainment perhaps?

God not only knew what would happen, but he also allowed it to happen so that the history of the world would unfold

And couldn't some other history of the world have developed? Of course it could have. So my question remains, why did god choose this rather flawed scenario to unfold? Personally, because he admittedly creates evil (Isaiah 45:7,) and is less than moral, I think he gets a kick out of watching people suffer.

.

Please take this with all due respect, but there's no way that anyone who is not a true child of God can properly understand the scriptures. Logic and common sense only leads to further confusion.

[i]1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/i]

This is a basic truth which applies to the whole of the scriptures. That is why you think that the record of the fall of man along with the way the historical biblical record has unfolded is flawed, when, in actuality, when we can see that every biblical record points us to the gospel message, then we realize that it's perfect and not flawed.

[Eddie Ramos]

Because the Bible teaches us to look for the gospel message in every account of the scriptures...

Sorry, I don't think that is true.

I'm sorry to hear that, but I would be happy to provide as many scriptures as you'd like to show you that this is true from the Bible.

Proverbs 27:17 (KJV)
17 Iron sharpeneth iron;
so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

[Miles]

.

A few questions regarding

Genesis 2:15
15 The Lord God put the man in the Garden of Eden to work the soil and take care of the garden. 16 The Lord God gave him this command: “You may eat from any tree in the garden. 17 But you must not eat from the tree that gives knowledge about good and evil. If you eat fruit from that tree, on that day you will certainly die!”

1. Who here has any reason to believe Adam knew what "you will certainly die!” meant? From what we can gather from the story Adam had no concept of death or dying, in which case god's warning is pretty stupid.

It may seem that way to you if you disregard the nature of the scriptures as being holy and parabolic and historically accurate. When God created man, he created him with the ability to understand and reason and make decisions, whether of obedience or disobedience. According to your argument, Adam would not even have a concept of what eating was since the text doesn't specify that he did. But we know that Adam and Eve did have understanding of the both the limits of their permission and the consequences of their disobedience, as reiterated by Eve.

Eating is a whole different animal. It's a response to hunger, which isn't driven by understanding, but by physiological mechanisms.

"When our blood glucose levels drop, the pancreas and liver generate a number of chemical signals that induce hunger (Konturek et al., 2003; Novin, Robinson, Culbreth, & Tordoff, 1985) and thus initiate feeding behavior. As blood glucose levels increase, the pancreas and liver send signals to shut off hunger and eating (Drazen & Woods, 2003; Druce, Small, & Bloom, 2004; Greary, 1990). The food’s passage through the gastrointestinal tract also provides important satiety signals to the brain (Woods, 2004), and fat cells release leptin, a satiety hormone."
source

So, while huger is physiologically driven and can only be satiated by eating, death and dying are no such things. To be meaningful the concept of death first needs to be understood, something that's never mentioned, and can't be taken for granted as happening, in Genesis. Lacking any clues from god, their hunger would have eventually driven them to trying all kinds of things to eat, whereas there was no driving need to know what death is.

2. In as much as god is omniscient wouldn't he have known that A & E would eat the apple before he even created the two? Sure he would.

Absolutely he did. The garden of Eden and the forbidden tree was a test for mankind to see who they would obey.

A "test" with a foregone conclusion. God, being omniscient, knew full well who A&E would obey, and that they would end up eating the apple.

3. So why did god create two individuals and then set them up to fail? Entertainment perhaps?

God not only knew what would happen, but he also allowed it to happen so that the history of the world would unfold

And couldn't some other history of the world have developed? Of course it could have. So my question remains, why did god choose this rather flawed scenario to unfold? Personally, because he admittedly creates evil (Isaiah 45:7,) and is less than moral, I think he gets a kick out of watching people suffer.

.

Please take this with all due respect, but there's no way that anyone who is not a true child of God can properly understand the scriptures. Logic and common sense only leads to further confusion.

Yeah, I pretty much figured my reply would put you in a corner where, again, you'd have to resort to the lame "Sorry you're incapable of understanding what only we True Children of God do." Not that you don't try to use common sense in some of your answers, but when it fails you have this cute fall-back position you try to hide behind.

Actually, your position of superiority, where logic and common sense are a hindrance, is probably the most amusing we've had around here in quite some time.


Have a good day. I know I am.


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