The problem of evil

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William
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The problem of evil

Post #1

Post by William »

Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?
The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}
Last edited by William on Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #2

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William wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:01 pm Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?
The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. {SOURCE}
Don't know where you got your quote from, but as I understand "The problem of evil" it's one of reconciling a loving and merciful God, who, at the same time creates evil and permits suffering to exist.

"Philosophically, the problem can be "recast as an argument for the non-existence of God. Thus if, for simplicity, we focus on a conception of God as all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good, one very concise way of formulating such an argument is as follows:

1.If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6.If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

That this argument is valid is perhaps most easily seen by a reductio argument, in which one assumes that the conclusion—(7)—is false, and then shows that the denial of (7), along with premises (1) through (6), leads to a contradiction. Thus if, contrary to (7), God exists, it follows from (1) that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. This, together with (2), (3), and (4) then entails that God has the power to eliminate all evil, that God knows when evil exists, and that God has the desire to eliminate all evil. But when (5) is conjoined with the reductio assumption that God exists, it then follows via modus ponens from (6) that either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil. Thus we have a contradiction, and so premises (1) through (6) do validly imply (7).

Whether the argument is sound is, of course, a further question, for it may be that one or more of the premises is false. The point here, however, is simply that when one conceives of God as unlimited with respect to power, knowledge, and moral goodness, the existence of evil quickly gives rise to potentially serious arguments against the existence of God."
source


Of course the problem only exists for those who claim the character of god, as stated above, is true, in light of reality.


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Re: The problem of evil

Post #3

Post by William »

[Replying to Miles in post #2]
Don't know where you got your quote from...
Thanks for the heads up - I edited OP by adding source link.
5. Evil exists.
This is what the OPQ is asking. Is the statement "Evil exists" one of fact or conjecture?

iow - is "evil" an objective reality or a subjective conjecture?

Biblical stories of the God viewing human behavior as being ["evil"?] would support that such behavior can be observed objectively and thus "5. Evil exists." would be true.

But as we all know, 'evil' is spawned through moralistic principles which folk have difficulty in agreeing to when moralism is thought of as opinion-based...
Of course the problem only exists for those who claim the character of god, as stated above, is true, in light of reality.
Which is to say what, re those who do not claim such? That those ones believe evil does not exist? Something else?

Re that, what of the question of GOD? Does removing characterizations re GOD, remove the possibility that GOD exists?

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #4

Post by Miles »

William wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:55 pm [Replying to Miles in post #2]
Don't know where you got your quote from...
Thanks for the heads up - I edited OP by adding source link.
5. Evil exists.
This is what the OPQ is asking. Is the statement "Evil exists" one of fact or conjecture?
I thought the OPQ was asking about the "The problem of evil," as in the question "Then there is 'The problem of evil' one of fact or conjecture?"

NO?


Of course the problem only exists for those who claim the character of god, as stated above, is true, in light of reality.
Which is to say what, re those who do not claim such? That those ones believe evil does not exist? Something else?
If the "problem" rests in part on the supposed love and mercy of god, and one doesn't believe god is loving and merciful then there should be no problem believing he could permit the existence of evil and suffering.


Re that, what of the question of GOD? Does removing characterizations re GOD, remove the possibility that GOD exists?
I don't think so. From what I've read the god of the Bible is a selfish, vengeful, hateful, bigoted, arrogant, xenophobic deity, which I don't see as precluding his existence, and considering the state of the world such a god is far more likely to exist than one who is loving and merciful.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #5

Post by TRANSPONDER »

There are two points picked up here - the nature of Evil and whether it is a valid and serious apologetics -problem for believers.

Putting my atheist hat on, good or bad is just human preference (and I won't labour the 'morality/ethics' debate here.) and I totally reject any religious, theological or universal existence of Good and bad, evil or good, sin and sinlessness, other than as a matter of human preference - though none the less meaningful, and indeed of more value to humans than law -code imposed by a god or a conscious universe.

The other one is whether the existence and even doing of evil by a god (usually Biblegod) is a reason to cause Believers to have doubts. And I needn't go into the various apologetics here, but say that in many a deconversion story, the problem of evil and god either doing it, or doing nothing about it, is around half the reason that Theists deconverted themselves. The other being reading the Bible and seeing that it made no sense.n
The various theist excuses: 'God had to do it', we had it coming, it's done for our own good, or 'It's all God's plan, so it must be good' are only going to allow believers to cling to Faith; aren't going to be convincing for those having real doubts, let alone non - believers.

And the 'evil is the absence of good' argument is flawed for that reason (it's a strawman (1), especially in its' manifestation of 'Young Einstein debunks the atheist professor' which was even gone in grainy monochrome and in German to make it look true (it's a total lie and
is just 'Young Christian debunks the atheist professor' story with Einstein bussed in to add clout) has been refuted, and I haven't seen it for a long while. At one time it was as popular as the argument from Morality.

(1) forcing a false position on the atheist professor at the outset, so it's easy to knock down. The atheist logical position is that Evil does not exist as an entity or opinion of any entity outside of human reasoning and preference.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #6

Post by William »

So far it appears that the "problem of evil" is an argument invented by folk who cannot entertain the idea that we exist within a creation - implying a creator - and thus implying a creator must have to be evil to have created this reality experience.

Said another way, there would not be "the problem of evil" if we do not exist within a creation - if there is no creator.

:?:

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #7

Post by 1213 »

William wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:01 pm Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?
The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}
I don't think evil is a problem. Evil is something people wanted to know, which is why people were expelled to this "life" where we can experience what evil truly means. Nothing of this world can destroy our soul, which is why this is like Matrix, virtual reality where we can experience evil things without them causing a real problem.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #8

Post by William »

The problem of evil and the reason I created this thread, has to do with a sub-conversation I have been having with otseng ;
otseng wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:40 am
William wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:15 pm I am not under the impression it is an accusation or needs to be seen as an accusation. It is an observation. The God-image of the OT is a reformed character in the NT.

So - either we are dealing with a reformed entity or we are dealing with two different entities...
It's a false observation. It's not either of those. With the issue of God being genocidal and xenophobic, I think we should tackle this next after cosmology.
I am attempting to garner deeper understanding as to the idea of the problem of evil and am asking here, if it is a real problem or a fictional one.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #9

Post by The Nice Centurion »

William wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:59 pm The problem of evil and the reason I created this thread, has to do with a sub-conversation I have been having with otseng ;
otseng wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:40 am
William wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:15 pm I am not under the impression it is an accusation or needs to be seen as an accusation. It is an observation. The God-image of the OT is a reformed character in the NT.

So - either we are dealing with a reformed entity or we are dealing with two different entities...
It's a false observation. It's not either of those. With the issue of God being genocidal and xenophobic, I think we should tackle this next after cosmology.
I am attempting to garner deeper understanding as to the idea of the problem of evil and am asking here, if it is a real problem or a fictional one.
A theological one!
Christians and Mohamedans are asked; Why does your god allow evil?

But the bible and quran tell you whats good: Rape, slavery, pedophilians, flat earth believe, genocides, killing off peoüle who leave that religion . . .

And whats bad: Homosexualists, Witches, Adulterers, Unbelievers, all other religions, parents who do not hurt their kids . . .
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #10

Post by Miles »

William wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:34 am So far it appears that the "problem of evil" is an argument invented by folk who cannot entertain the idea that we exist within a creation - implying a creator - and thus implying a creator must have to be evil to have created this reality experience.

Said another way, there would not be "the problem of evil" if we do not exist within a creation - if there is no creator.

:?:
It's not an argument but a set of contradictory situations: the fact that evil and suffering exist, and the claim that an all powerful, all-loving, merciful god exists.


How do you reconcile an all-loving, merciful god, who has the power to do anything he wishes, with the fact that he lets all of mankind wallow in evil and suffering?

OR is this god, in fact, not all-loving and merciful at all, but may even delight in all the evil and suffering that exists?

OR is this god, in fact, two-faced; on the one hand dealing out love and mercy as he sees fit, but at the same time doesn't care one wit that humanity is beset with evil and suffering?

OR does this god, in fact, not exist at all?


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