The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Diogenes
Guru
Posts: 1307
Joined: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm
Location: Washington
Has thanked: 863 times
Been thanked: 1266 times

The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing
... with apologies to Milan Kundera
Think about it. You and someone have an opposing view and you argue. You pretend to listen to what she’s saying but what you’re really doing is thinking about the weakness in her argument so you can disprove it. Or perhaps, if she’s debunked a previous point, you’re thinking of new counter-arguments. Or, maybe, you’ve made it personal: it’s not just her argument that’s the problem. It’s her. And everyone who agrees with her.

In some rare cases, you might think the argument has merit. What then? Do you change your mind? Probably not. Instead, you make a mental note that you need to investigate the issue more to uncover the right argument to prove the person wrong.
https://hbr.org/2011/02/arguing-is-pointless.html

There are only two areas where arguments are fruitful; the courtroom and science.

Here we argue religion. Is it pointless?


The unbeliever suggests the world is round, evolution is true, and abiogenesis is close to being proven. The believer scoffs. He may admit the world is round; he may concede an aspect of evolution, but deny it in general and completely deny the possibility of abiogenesis.
The believer claims science is a religion and God is the author of all things. The unbeliever scoffs and demands evidence.

Let us suppose abiogenesis is demonstrated. How many Christians will agree, "There is no God?"

Let us suppose Jesus returns to Earth in all his glory with a host of angels and the stars are swept from the heavens. Will the atheist confess his error?

Perhaps the only point in arguing religion is in the craftsmanship of the argument rather than in its effectiveness to persuade.
___________________________________

Before You Embark On A Journey Of Revenge, Dig Two Graves

— Confucius

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 11435
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 324 times
Been thanked: 370 times

Re: The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing

Post #2

Post by 1213 »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:00 am ...
Perhaps the only point in arguing religion is in the craftsmanship of the argument rather than in its effectiveness to persuade.
In any case, I think it helps to understand matters better, which is why I don't think it is pointless. But, maybe this depends on person. For some it can be pointless, not for all.

User avatar
historia
Prodigy
Posts: 2609
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 6:41 pm
Has thanked: 221 times
Been thanked: 320 times

Re: The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing

Post #3

Post by historia »

Diogenes wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:00 am
Here we argue religion. Is it pointless?
No, I don't think it's pointless.

I personally enjoy the "craftsmanship" of the argument, as you put it. Both in terms of researching certain points and constructing what I hope are good arguments.

I never expect to change the minds of those I'm debating, though -- readers of the thread, maybe, but not my opponents. Maybe that's where some people get frustrated and discouraged.

User avatar
Diagoras
Guru
Posts: 1392
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
Has thanked: 170 times
Been thanked: 579 times

Re: The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing

Post #4

Post by Diagoras »

Agreed - I occasionally make a point of addressing the ‘general reader’, and it’s possible that someone on the fence regarding a particular issue may then feel motivated to at least seek out more information.

User avatar
Peds nurse
Site Supporter
Posts: 2270
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:27 am
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing

Post #5

Post by Peds nurse »

Hello beautiful people! Debating isn't really my passion as much as the people who comprise this forum. I don't approach this site as committing to changing people's minds about beliefs, but rather gain information about why people believe as they do. I learn and appreciate all of you so much, even though it has been a long while since I posted. Hugs to you all!

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8494
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2146 times
Been thanked: 2295 times

Re: The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing

Post #6

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Speaking primarily of my time on this forum, I haven't had any major changes in my thinking, but some things have been refined. One example is that I used to state that there is no afterlife, and I was completely convinced that was a true statement. I realize now that there is no way to know that with certainty at least not for any living humans. My position now is that I'm not convinced there is an afterlife. I am open to the possibility but live my life with the idea this is the only one I'll have.

I used to be a Christian theist and am now an atheist so obviously I have changed my thinking there which I is a major difference. And by atheist, I mean similarly to the above, I am not convinced that any gods exist. I don't claim no gods exist. This change came about through my own investigation and pondering the issue. Debate played no or at most a tiny part in this change and I would have become an atheist without it.

If Jesus were to reveal himself in a way that made it undeniable that he was God or at least the Son of God and that a God existed, I most definitely would change my position regarding God. However, if many of the things taught in the Bible are true, I'd not love or worship either Jesus or God. I'd accept their existence, but I wouldn't follow them


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8494
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2146 times
Been thanked: 2295 times

Re: The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing

Post #7

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Another example of a change I've experienced as a result of debating here is that I no longer (at least I hope I don't) try to convince others what they should identify as. I'm speaking specifically of what it means to be an atheist. Some argue that they are neither an atheist nor a theist because they aren't sure if god/gods exist. To me that would mean that they lack belief in god/gods and therefore are an atheist. I'm not sure why this was ever a big deal to me, but I used to be rather vocal, or rather typist?, not sure the right phrase, that they were an atheist.

I finally realized that it makes no difference what they call themselves as long as they describe what they mean by being a theist or an agnostic or an atheist or whatever. I don't know that any given poster pointed out this behavior, but it was clear that people didn't want to be told that the position they were describing was atheism. Gee, you think Tcg?, of course people don't want their position to be given a title they don't agree with.

It may not seem like a big deal, but I realized I was being a bit of a jerk sometimes and it doesn't matter at all. It doesn't progress the conversation or provide any benefit really. One thing however I remain a stickler about is that I consider myself an atheist because I am not convinced any god/gods exist. For some reason some folks don't like that definition and claim I'm wrong. Well, that's what I mean by being an atheist. As long as I or anyone else explains what they mean by the terms they use, we're good to go. Of course, language is a funny thing. We may never know exactly what others mean, but as long as we're close.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 8117
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 951 times
Been thanked: 3534 times

Re: The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing

Post #8

Post by TRANSPONDER »

it isn't a big deal as the irreligious or non - religious, whether they identify as deist, "Agnostic" irreligious theist or non - theist are all our bothers and sisters (apart from anti atheist non -believers who hate the name 'atheist' for socio political reasons) so I just set out what seems to be the logical position on the definitions just to be clear at least and of course, to debunk any gambit of using a strawman definition of atheism (at one time, the only one there was) to try to show that atheism was untenable, making claims it couldn't validate or not existing at all.

As to the quote in the OP, variants on 'You atheists are wasting your time', 'nobody can convince anyone', 'why are you here?', and other variants of the "Why don't you atheists shut up and go away?"gambit are water off a duck's back. Even if we were getting nowhere, we'd still have to do it. In my time i can recall four who were deconverted (or deconverted themselves) and one was a tough Theist opponent. I only saw one 'convert' and that was to irreligious Theism more or less being persuaded by Kalam.

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 6002
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6623 times
Been thanked: 3219 times

Re: The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing

Post #9

Post by brunumb »

Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:16 am One thing however I remain a stickler about is that I consider myself an atheist because I am not convinced any god/gods exist. For some reason some folks don't like that definition and claim I'm wrong.
I don't get that either. I don't believe in any gods so it doesn't really matter what label anyone decides to attach to that position. Saying that my definition of atheism is wrong in no way changes my position regarding the existence of gods. Why all the fuss?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 8117
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 951 times
Been thanked: 3534 times

Re: The Unbearable Pointlessness of Arguing

Post #10

Post by TRANSPONDER »

brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:05 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:16 am One thing however I remain a stickler about is that I consider myself an atheist because I am not convinced any god/gods exist. For some reason some folks don't like that definition and claim I'm wrong.
I don't get that either. I don't believe in any gods so it doesn't really matter what label anyone decides to attach to that position. Saying that my definition of atheism is wrong in no way changes my position regarding the existence of gods. Why all the fuss?
Because, if it can be misrepresented (made a strawman definition, in fact) it can be used as an argument against atheism.

Post Reply