Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Regens Küchl
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Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

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Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #571

Post by The Nice Centurion »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 11:27 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:58 pm Thank you.

I'm sure sure what is meant by "no witnesses to the actual resurrection". As the story goes, there wouldn't be as Jesus resurrected inside the tomb with no -one to see it. .
Several problems with that reasoning.
The mythology stars an omnipotent god who could have esily arranged his greatest show to be witnessed by whichever people he wanted.
Why not teleport the greatest historians, physicians and rulers of the time to the burial site?

What? Not enough room for them all inside the tomb to watch listen and learn? No sufficient light inside to see the resurrection sufficiently?

Our omnipotent excellency cant have a problem with dealing with that!
Just make the tomb invisible to show only the rising Jesus therein. Or just send the angel (our god is too lazy to just will the stone gone ??? So he needs his angelic lackey ???) to dispose of the stone BEFORE RESURRECTION TIME and teleport half a dozen of the most important people of the time before the entrance and force them to watch.
Or Perhaps rather the people most involved in this?

How about snatching Tiberius Caesar, King Herod, Pontius Pilate, a young Paul (so he wouldnt even think of starting harrassing christians), Judas (to show him that his planned suicide got obsolete) and Peter (so he could at once start the propaganda machine for Jesus) and give them front seats for "the resurrection" ???

But aside that; That Jesus was alone in the tomb in no way explains the missing resurrection narrative!
For the gospels are so full of narratives of Jesus doing and saing things with no other person there watching that I dont even have to give examples.

Hell, the narrative even tells what Jesus did in Hades. He stroke down Death and Devil.
(Are we to assume that Death and devil couldnt wait to tell the evangelists about their shame?)
So how could the narrative pass its chance to describe the actual resurrection?
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:30 am A nice idea, but the short answer is, God doesn't land in a fleet of flying saucers on the White house Lawn or give press conferences. He operates through normal activities that could pass as ordinary events with a bit of coincidence and some fanciful claims that could be dismissed as tall tales. The element of free will choice has to remain so that Faith is valid. If it was just made undeniable and provable, faith would be so watered down that it wouldn't save anyone.
Yeah, the good ole ROCK AND HARD PLACE FALLACY.
But a fallacy tends to be no real answer.

While you are right that Jesus whole Miracles were strangely secretively done. To quote here Robert Price:
Then there is the nagging fact that the miracles of the gospels were “done in a corner,” unlike the Technicolor wonders of Exodus and Elijah. The more spectacular gospel miracles are set in private. The Transfiguration (Mark 9:2-4) was seen by only three people who were told to keep it under their turbans (Mark 9:9). No one but the twelve disciples knew about the multiplication of loaves and fish (Mark 6:35-44; 8:1-9), not the crowd. Only the twelve were on the scene when Jesus stilled the storm (Mark 4:35-41) and walked on the water (Mark 6:45-52). Only the steward at the Cana wedding feast understood what had happened, besides the disciples (John 2:1-11). The risen Jesus appeared to a grand total of two people on the Emmaus road (Luke 24:13-35), to disciples on lonely beaches (John 21:1-14) and behind locked doors (John 20:19-29). (The 500 brethren appear only in 1 Corinthians 15:6, a sure sign the story did not yet exist when the gospels were written.) We have to ask reasonably whether all this is clever excuse-making for why no one knew about it at the time. (The question of exorcisms and healings, performed before many crowds, is different. Such scenes are common today and were in the ancient world; no one would have denied that such things happened. They don’t prove anything today, and they didn’t then.)
https://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com ... racles.htm
So Jesus seems to have intended to not break with the rule of closet miracles and resurrect in secret?

But OT miracles happened publically.
James Strang unearthed the Bronce Plates publically.
The Sun Dancing at Fatima happened publically.

Therefore this is poor reasoning here:
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:30 am A nice idea, but the short answer is, God doesn't land in a fleet of flying saucers on the White house Lawn or give press conferences.
Further, not landing with flying saucer fleet on white house lawn is synonimous with not allowing one little witness for "the resurrection"? The " ", because with that much hush hush resurrection one gets inclined to ask: What resurrection?
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 1:30 am He operates through normal activities that could pass as ordinary events with a bit of coincidence and some fanciful claims that could be dismissed as tall tales.
The flood covered the whole world. How can that be explained as natural event?
James Strang unearthed th Bronce Plates. How can that be explained as natural event?
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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #572

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #571]

I'm a bit lost here. Are you suggesting the 3,000 or 5,000 (I forget the numbers from the stories) people didn't know that Jesus performed a miracle to feed them? What about Mary and Martha who most certainly were aware of their brother's resurrection. Jesus healing the blind man on the Sabbath which so upset the Pharisees? And Mary had a public conversation with her son before he reportedly created wine from water. Are we to suspect no one else heard that conversation? Jesus reportedly performed many public miracles. Oh, and the reattachment of the ear Peter cut off. Did people close their eyes when that happened?


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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #573

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:24 am [Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #571]

I'm a bit lost here. Are you suggesting the 3,000 or 5,000 (I forget the numbers from the stories) people didn't know that Jesus performed a miracle to feed them? What about Mary and Martha who most certainly were aware of their brother's resurrection. Jesus healing the blind man on the Sabbath which so upset the Pharisees? And Mary had a public conversation with her son before he reportedly created wine from water. Are we to suspect no one else heard that conversation? Jesus reportedly performed many public miracles. Oh, and the reattachment of the ear Peter cut off. Did people close their eyes when that happened?


Tcg
I is not the first time I recognice that it happens you dont really read posts before answering them. My above quote from Robert Price answers most your questions, so you neednt get confused.

"Lukes" ear? Translation problem! I'm all ears for your argument. Nighty night! Too dark to see a miracle.
Word could also mean ear was hurt. So Jesus stilled the blood. Oh great miracle!
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

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"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #574

Post by TRANSPONDER »

[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #571]

Yes. I do understand your argument - and it's a known atheist apologetic: God would know what he needed to arrange to remove all doubt and debate. Aside from coming down Himself, just one person in the tomb to see Jesus recover and stand up would be better than an empty tomb and therefore, we are supposed to leap to a conclusion.

But God, at least since Exodus disappears even as a pillar of smoke and works through familiar everyday events with a supernatural element, but not the flying saucers on the lawn type of open proof.

I agree a global flood isn't 'natural' but only because the geological science doesn't think the world was Ever totally under water - not even in the 1000 millions BC. So the Bible apologists have three options - no, four -
(1) deny the science (YE Creationism)
(2) try to adapt the Bible to the science (Local Flood, e.g the Black Sea' flood).
(3) appeal to Faith
(4) don't talk about it.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #575

Post by brunumb »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:37 am Aside from coming down Himself, just one person in the tomb to see Jesus recover and stand up would be better than an empty tomb and therefore, we are supposed to leap to a conclusion.
Given that the resurrection is the linchpin of Christianity, you'd think that Yahweh/Jehovah/God would have made the event at least a bit more spectacular. A host of angel descending on the tomb in glowing light attracting a huge crowd. The stone miraculously rolling itself away. The resurrected Jesus emerging in all his glory to the amazement of the multitude. Free bread and fish for all.
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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #576

Post by TRANSPONDER »

brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:18 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:37 am Aside from coming down Himself, just one person in the tomb to see Jesus recover and stand up would be better than an empty tomb and therefore, we are supposed to leap to a conclusion.
Given that the resurrection is the linchpin of Christianity, you'd think that Yahweh/Jehovah/God would have made the event at least a bit more spectacular. A host of angel descending on the tomb in glowing light attracting a huge crowd. The stone miraculously rolling itself away. The resurrected Jesus emerging in all his glory to the amazement of the multitude. Free bread and fish for all.
Yes. I have said (many times) that (as Paul is supposed to have said) that if the resurrection fails to be taken as 70- 80% reliable fact, then Christianity collapses as any credible claim. So you'd think a god worth of an atom of respect would get this one thing right even if he fouled up on everything else. But what do we get? Mark and Paul who say nothing about the resurrection, except the claim that there was one, and Matthew, Luke and John who come up with three disparate accounts that would have the Jury fined for uncontrollable laughter in court.

That is, once the lawyer had pointed out the obvious, as it seems a curious human foible to not See things. But I'm maybe wise after the event. I needed a LOT of this stuff pointed out to me. Like Conjuring tricks, they look like undeniable magic, until explained. Then you laugh 'It's obvious'. Yes, once you know

Arq Atheist Axiom - 'once you know the trick, you can't be fooled again'

I was looking at (advt - Heel vs. babyface) Az talking about the upcoming Addams family film. Initially he raged because Morticia's husband was played by a short, stubby man - not like in the TV series. But then it was pointed out that the original cartoon had a short tubby husband. And Az took the point on board. And I thought 'Yes, good point'. But then he made the case that the TV show had established the mainstream canon, not the cartoon. It's like LoR. The Film has established the way the Hobbits look and to see the original drawings of Hobbits is a shock, even if approved by Tolkien.

So I had missed many of these points until pointed out to me, so I shouldn't be too sniffy about people who didn't know that Luke contradicted Matthew, though there is no excuse once they've been told.

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #577

Post by The Nice Centurion »

brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:18 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:37 am Aside from coming down Himself, just one person in the tomb to see Jesus recover and stand up would be better than an empty tomb and therefore, we are supposed to leap to a conclusion.
Given that the resurrection is the linchpin of Christianity, you'd think that Yahweh/Jehovah/God would have made the event at least a bit more spectacular. A host of angel descending on the tomb in glowing light attracting a huge crowd. The stone miraculously rolling itself away. The resurrected Jesus emerging in all his glory to the amazement of the multitude. Free bread and fish for all.
Gospel of peter comes closest to your expectancy.
But especialy against that one, believers seem to harbor a special dislike!
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

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For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #578

Post by Tcg »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:07 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:24 am [Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #571]

I'm a bit lost here. Are you suggesting the 3,000 or 5,000 (I forget the numbers from the stories) people didn't know that Jesus performed a miracle to feed them? What about Mary and Martha who most certainly were aware of their brother's resurrection. Jesus healing the blind man on the Sabbath which so upset the Pharisees? And Mary had a public conversation with her son before he reportedly created wine from water. Are we to suspect no one else heard that conversation? Jesus reportedly performed many public miracles. Oh, and the reattachment of the ear Peter cut off. Did people close their eyes when that happened?


Tcg
I is not the first time I recognice that it happens you dont really read posts before answering them. My above quote from Robert Price answers most your questions, so you neednt get confused.

"Lukes" ear? Translation problem! I'm all ears for your argument. Nighty night! Too dark to see a miracle.
Word could also mean ear was hurt. So Jesus stilled the blood. Oh great miracle!
I read your posts. It's not my fault they don't reflect an accurate representation of the stories told in the gospels about Jesus' supposed miraculous activities.

There are two major responses to answer this query. If the story is true, then obviously, no one would want to be locked into the tomb with Jesus. If the story is false, which is much more likely, no one observed the actual resurrection because it never happened. There's no mystery in either conclusion.


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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #579

Post by Clownboat »

brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:18 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:37 am Aside from coming down Himself, just one person in the tomb to see Jesus recover and stand up would be better than an empty tomb and therefore, we are supposed to leap to a conclusion.
Given that the resurrection is the linchpin of Christianity, you'd think that Yahweh/Jehovah/God would have made the event at least a bit more spectacular. A host of angel descending on the tomb in glowing light attracting a huge crowd. The stone miraculously rolling itself away. The resurrected Jesus emerging in all his glory to the amazement of the multitude. Free bread and fish for all.
Instead, what we get is the very real possibility that the disciples took the body, loaded it with spices for a journey to Galilee where a logical resting place would have been.
Oh hum.
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Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #580

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Clownboat wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:59 am
brunumb wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:18 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:37 am Aside from coming down Himself, just one person in the tomb to see Jesus recover and stand up would be better than an empty tomb and therefore, we are supposed to leap to a conclusion.
Given that the resurrection is the linchpin of Christianity, you'd think that Yahweh/Jehovah/God would have made the event at least a bit more spectacular. A host of angel descending on the tomb in glowing light attracting a huge crowd. The stone miraculously rolling itself away. The resurrected Jesus emerging in all his glory to the amazement of the multitude. Free bread and fish for all.
Instead, what we get is the very real possibility that the disciples took the body, loaded it with spices for a journey to Galilee where a logical resting place would have been.
Oh hum.
Impossible, for William Lane Craig says that the evil Sanhedrin, who were a buch of Satan worshippers, did everything to keep secret that Jesus was Christ and also placed three Centurions to guard the tomb.
(Their cohorts got a free day.)

And also then Jesus would logically have resurrected on the Journey or on his logical resting place.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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