The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}
The problem of evil
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The problem of evil
Post #1Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?
Last edited by William on Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The problem of evil
Post #11[Replying to Miles in post #10]
Or is there an overlooked option?
The fact is that evil and suffering exist as temporary experiences which appear to be manifested only through the actions of humans.
Should the act of a lion eating a man, be considered an evil act?
[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #9]
When observing nature we see clearly that all biological life-forms are behaving in ways which are reminiscent of those evils you mentioned;
Rape, slavery, genocides...why are such things regarded as 'evil' simply because humans do them?
If nature is a creation of a GOD-creator mind, why should we have to think that said mind would therefore be evil?
Or is there an overlooked option?
Attributing evil acts of human beings as ordered up by "God", may well muddy the waters.GM: viewtopic.php?p=1083860#p1083860
William: From the link;GM: "One can commune with the gods as long as the overall subject is GodWilliam: re your second question as to why religious mythology is an exception to the rule, the answer probably also comes from a position of bias as those who invent and agree to such rules might be heavily influenced by the mythological imagery to the extent where they lack understanding that the mythological imagery is simply a well intended interpretation of experiences had, which are not easily explainable to others, using whatever communication techniques available at the time of explanation.
For example, if a space-faring advanced specie were to display to an individual human mind from the stone-age period, a fully immersive holographic experience of compacted imagery showing how the universe began, and subsequently unfolded, the individual experiencing this would not be able to distinguish the holographic display from the normal reality he/she usually experiences. One would appear as real to the individual, as the other.
Further to that, any interpretation of the experience in the telling of it to his/her stone aged fellows, can only be attempted through use of analogy and those peoples understanding of form and function as it pertains to them - from their perspective in the dominant reality experience in said universe.
Without getting caught up in the sticky web of Christian-denominational-dynamics"
Mistranslating traumatic ancestral memories
{SOURCE}
The fact is that evil and suffering exist as temporary experiences which appear to be manifested only through the actions of humans.
Should the act of a lion eating a man, be considered an evil act?
[Replying to The Nice Centurion in post #9]
When observing nature we see clearly that all biological life-forms are behaving in ways which are reminiscent of those evils you mentioned;
Rape, slavery, genocides...why are such things regarded as 'evil' simply because humans do them?
If nature is a creation of a GOD-creator mind, why should we have to think that said mind would therefore be evil?
- otseng
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Re: The problem of evil
Post #12What you had brought up in the thread is different from the OP. They are not related. The problem of evil is about why does God allow evil in the world. The problem you stated in the thread is about God being evil, particularly in the OT.William wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:59 pm The problem of evil and the reason I created this thread, has to do with a sub-conversation I have been having with otseng ;
I am attempting to garner deeper understanding as to the idea of the problem of evil and am asking here, if it is a real problem or a fictional one.otseng wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:40 amIt's a false observation. It's not either of those. With the issue of God being genocidal and xenophobic, I think we should tackle this next after cosmology.William wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:15 pm I am not under the impression it is an accusation or needs to be seen as an accusation. It is an observation. The God-image of the OT is a reformed character in the NT.
So - either we are dealing with a reformed entity or we are dealing with two different entities...
William wrote: ↑Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:08 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #1215]
My opinion is that a supposed confusion of God-ideas as presented through the Bible because of human mismanagement of these concepts - through superimposing a nice God-idea over a cruel one - may be an incorrect assumption.
The idea of "Space Aliens" being involved is one natural enough explanation - I suppose - but think it may be an unnecessary one, if such can be explained without ET.
The underlying problem with The Christianity's has to do with explaining how the violent xenophobic hierarchical GOD of the OT became this - somewhat more approachable Fatherly Figure Jesus proclaimed GOD as being.
Reconciling the one with the other.
Is the violent xenophobic hierarchical GOD really a changed entity, or is the one false and the other true? Where is the inerrancy?
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Re: The problem of evil
Post #13William: I am attempting to garner deeper understanding as to the idea of the problem of evil and am asking here, if it is a real problem or a fictional one.
[Replying to otseng in post #12]
[Replying to otseng in post #12]
Maybe they are related and maybe they are not - that is what I am examining while we wait...What you had brought up in the thread is different from the OP. They are not related. The problem of evil is about why does God allow evil in the world. The problem you stated in the thread is about God being evil, particularly in the OT.
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Re: The problem of evil
Post #14What do you mean? Written like that, it looks as if you are saying that things like murder, rape and torture are 'not a problem', but I don't think you would agree with that. Perhaps you can clarify.
I'm not so sure - the Genesis story in the Bible has Adam and Eve being 'expelled' from the Garden of Eden after they suddenly gained knowledge of the difference between good and evil. Nothing in the story suggests that they were eager to 'give evil a try'.1213 wrote:Evil is something people wanted to know, which is why people were expelled to this "life" where we can experience what evil truly means.
I've sat through some work presentations that managed it in a couple of hours.1213 wrote:Nothing of this world can destroy our soul
Again, I'm struggling to understand you. If someone rapes and murders a member of your family, are you saying that's not a problem? To you, or to the family member?1213 wrote:<...>, which is why this is like Matrix, virtual reality where we can experience evil things without them causing a real problem.
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Re: The problem of evil
Post #15It's not that evil acts need be "ordered up by god," but merely that god allows them and suffering to exist at all. After all, god is the instigator of evil.William wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:25 pm [Replying to Miles in post #10]
Or is there an overlooked option?
Attributing evil acts of human beings as ordered up by "God", may well muddy the waters.GM: viewtopic.php?p=1083860#p1083860
William: From the link;GM: "One can commune with the gods as long as the overall subject is GodWilliam: re your second question as to why religious mythology is an exception to the rule, the answer probably also comes from a position of bias as those who invent and agree to such rules might be heavily influenced by the mythological imagery to the extent where they lack understanding that the mythological imagery is simply a well intended interpretation of experiences had, which are not easily explainable to others, using whatever communication techniques available at the time of explanation.
For example, if a space-faring advanced specie were to display to an individual human mind from the stone-age period, a fully immersive holographic experience of compacted imagery showing how the universe began, and subsequently unfolded, the individual experiencing this would not be able to distinguish the holographic display from the normal reality he/she usually experiences. One would appear as real to the individual, as the other.
Further to that, any interpretation of the experience in the telling of it to his/her stone aged fellows, can only be attempted through use of analogy and those peoples understanding of form and function as it pertains to them - from their perspective in the dominant reality experience in said universe.
Without getting caught up in the sticky web of Christian-denominational-dynamics"
Mistranslating traumatic ancestral memories
{SOURCE}
.............Isaiah 45:7(KJV)
.............I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
As noted above, god takes credit for creating evil. Moreover, suffering can well be the result of non-human events, such as floods, hurricanes, and diseases. And a lot of suffering is not temporary at all; the effects of many diseases, such as Lou Gehrig's disease and other chronic diseases can last a lifetime. Hardly "temporary experiences" at all.The fact is that evil and suffering exist as temporary experiences which appear to be manifested only through the actions of humans.
That and the fact that they are profoundly immoral and wicked. Plus the fact that quite a few evil deeds, such as rape and slavery, have been condoned by god.Rape, slavery, genocides...why are such things regarded as 'evil' simply because humans do them?
RAPE
Deuteronomy 20:14
but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you..
but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you..
Think god was so naive that he did expect that enjoying plundered women wouldn't involve rape?
SLAVERY
Deuteronomy 20:13-15
Before you attack a town that is far from your land, offer peace to the people who live there. If they surrender and open their town gates, they will become your slaves. But if they reject your offer of peace and try to fight, surround their town and attack. Then, after the Lord helps you capture it, kill all the men. Take the women and children as slaves and keep the livestock and everything else of value.
Before you attack a town that is far from your land, offer peace to the people who live there. If they surrender and open their town gates, they will become your slaves. But if they reject your offer of peace and try to fight, surround their town and attack. Then, after the Lord helps you capture it, kill all the men. Take the women and children as slaves and keep the livestock and everything else of value.
Yup. "they will become your slaves."
Evils endorsed by God himself.
.
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Re: The problem of evil
Post #16William: Attributing evil acts of human beings as ordered up by "God", may well muddy the waters.
[Replying to Miles in post #15]
Would it make any difference re the [alleged] problem?
That aside, I am aware that this God is also given credit for being life, love [stuff like that] so cherry picking isn't much help re understanding the validity of the alleged problem, as it leans the bias in favor of an outcome which makes it look like the problem is real, by ignoring other information.
As to floods, hurricanes, and diseases, are you arguing that these are evil? I was arguing that the things folk refer to as 'evil' re the problem, are related to human actions.
Indeed, such thinking is relatively new to collective humanity.
If nature is a creation of a GOD-creator mind, why should we have to think that said mind would therefore be evil?
[Replying to Miles in post #15]
I am attempting to understand whether the beef is with that particular idea of GOD or the idea of a Creator in general.It's not that evil acts need be "ordered up by god," but merely that god allows them and suffering to exist at all. After all, god is the instigator of evil.
.............Isaiah 45:7(KJV)
.............I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Would it make any difference re the [alleged] problem?
The fact is that evil and suffering exist as temporary experiences which appear to be manifested only through the actions of humans.
I am unconvinced that any GOD took credit for anything as I think that the Bible is a book of stories about men who - each in their own ways, had experiences they attributed to a Creator-God.As noted above, god takes credit for creating evil.
That aside, I am aware that this God is also given credit for being life, love [stuff like that] so cherry picking isn't much help re understanding the validity of the alleged problem, as it leans the bias in favor of an outcome which makes it look like the problem is real, by ignoring other information.
Again, cherry picking isn't helpful in establishing the full picture. Suffering is temporary because death eventual happens.Moreover, suffering can well be the result of non-human events, such as floods, hurricanes, and diseases. And a lot of suffering is not temporary at all; the effects of many diseases, such as Lou Gehrig's disease and other chronic diseases can last a lifetime. Hardly "temporary experiences" at all.
As to floods, hurricanes, and diseases, are you arguing that these are evil? I was arguing that the things folk refer to as 'evil' re the problem, are related to human actions.
When observing nature we see clearly that all biological life-forms are behaving in ways which are reminiscent of those evils mentioned;
Rape, slavery, genocides...why are such things regarded as 'evil' simply because humans do them?
Or, they are natural expressions re life on this planet which are only understood to being "profoundly immoral and wicked" - again due to human thinking and actions.That and the fact that they are profoundly immoral and wicked.
Indeed, such thinking is relatively new to collective humanity.
How do you think that affected the world? Why do you think it is a problem?Plus the fact that quite a few evil deeds, such as rape and slavery, have been condoned by god.
If nature is a creation of a GOD-creator mind, why should we have to think that said mind would therefore be evil?
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Re: The problem of evil
Post #17Murder, rape and torture are evil and wrong. People should not do those. But, evil is not a problem, because it is just a temporary thing that we are allowed to know, because people in the beginning wanted to know evil like God knows. Evil doesn't last forever and it can't destroy our soul, that is why it is not a problem.
The story tells they wanted to know evil. The story doesn't tell the fruit gave them any knowledge directly. It was the "serpent" that claimed after they eat it, they will know. And in away, after they ate it, they got more knowledge, there is just no reason to think it is the fruit itself that gave anything, it was just the result of the action.Diagoras wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:40 pmI'm not so sure - the Genesis story in the Bible has Adam and Eve being 'expelled' from the Garden of Eden after they suddenly gained knowledge of the difference between good and evil. Nothing in the story suggests that they were eager to 'give evil a try'.1213 wrote:Evil is something people wanted to know, which is why people were expelled to this "life" where we can experience what evil truly means.
How? What do you think soul is?
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Re: The problem of evil
Post #18It is the imperceptible and transcendent spiritual entity within each human that imparts comprehension, intellect and the perception of risibility, which allows us to see and detect humor , in which case. you clearly don't have one as that quip plainly passed right over you head. But then, When the Believers talks of Holy Things, their sense of humor withers like a cursed figtree.1213 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:35 amMurder, rape and torture are evil and wrong. People should not do those. But, evil is not a problem, because it is just a temporary thing that we are allowed to know, because people in the beginning wanted to know evil like God knows. Evil doesn't last forever and it can't destroy our soul, that is why it is not a problem.
The story tells they wanted to know evil. The story doesn't tell the fruit gave them any knowledge directly. It was the "serpent" that claimed after they eat it, they will know. And in away, after they ate it, they got more knowledge, there is just no reason to think it is the fruit itself that gave anything, it was just the result of the action.Diagoras wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:40 pmI'm not so sure - the Genesis story in the Bible has Adam and Eve being 'expelled' from the Garden of Eden after they suddenly gained knowledge of the difference between good and evil. Nothing in the story suggests that they were eager to 'give evil a try'.1213 wrote:Evil is something people wanted to know, which is why people were expelled to this "life" where we can experience what evil truly means.
How? What do you think soul is?
The problem here is that millennia of trying to work out a morality and ethic are airly presented as something we know because god writ it on our hearts, and in fact all the world's evils are worth no more than a mild tut -tutting because God has it all in hand and all that matters is fighting for the latest Dogmatic Shibboleth, because Getting Right with God is all that matters.
Not that I regard the Eden story as anything more than a fairy -tale, but dumping the blame on the humans or indeed the snake, is ignoring the fact that the whole thing is a stitch up by God to bring about exactly what he clearly intended - to introduce sin death into the world, unless the Bible apologist says that God did not know from the start of creation about Sin, sidelining the law, Jesus and the final ending with the plan covering all that. Because if the Bible apologist excuses God that He didn't know, he is working blind and knows no more than any other human bean.
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Re: The problem of evil
Post #19I don't see Christians making any distinction between god and the creator, so I won't either.William wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:08 am William: Attributing evil acts of human beings as ordered up by "God", may well muddy the waters.
[Replying to Miles in post #15]
I am attempting to understand whether the beef is with that particular idea of GOD or the idea of a Creator in general.It's not that evil acts need be "ordered up by god," but merely that god allows them and suffering to exist at all. After all, god is the instigator of evil.
.............Isaiah 45:7(KJV)
.............I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Would it make any difference re the [alleged] problem?
Then we have nothing more to discuss.The fact is that evil and suffering exist as temporary experiences which appear to be manifested only through the actions of humans.I am unconvinced that any GOD took credit for anything as I think that the Bible is a book of stories about men who - each in their own ways, had experiences they attributed to a Creator-God.As noted above, god takes credit for creating evil.
Have a good day.
.
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Re: The problem of evil
Post #20William: I am attempting to understand whether the beef is with that particular idea of GOD or the idea of a Creator in general.
Would it make any difference re the [alleged] problem?
[Replying to Miles in post #19]
Thanks for your help.
You have a great day too.
Would it make any difference re the [alleged] problem?
[Replying to Miles in post #19]
Then I can correctly ascertain that the 'problem' is only one which applies to what Christian define as "The Creator" and thus, the answer to my question would be that the problem is only argued as being a problem, in relation to Christian distinctions, but is not really a problem at all in regard to the possibility we exist within a creation.I don't see Christians making any distinction between god and the creator, so I won't either.
Thanks for your help.
You have a great day too.