.
I say yes.
This thread was created in order to discuss/debate what is called the argument from design (teleological argument), which is a classical argument for the existence of God.
For more on what fine tuning is as it pertains to the argument, please read this wikipedia article..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe
Now, it is well known and established in science, that the constants and values which govern our universe is mathematically precise.
How precise?
Well, please see this article by Dr. Hugh Ross...
https://wng.org/roundups/a-fine-tuned-u ... 1617224984
Excerpt...
"More than a hundred different parameters for the universe must have values falling within narrowly defined ranges for physical life of any conceivable kind to exist." (see above article for list of parameters).
Or..(in wiki article above, on fine tuning)..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... e#Examples
When you read the articles, you will find that there isn't much room for error.
If you start with a highly chaotic, random, disordered big bang, the odds are astronomically AGAINST the manifestation of sentient, human life.
How disordered was the big bang at the onset of the expansion...well, physicist Roger Penrose calculated that the chances of life originating via random chance, was 1 chance in 10^10^123 ( The Emperor’s New Mind, pg. 341-344.....according to..
https://mathscholar.org/2017/04/is-the- ... 20universe.
That is a double exponent with 123 as the double!!
The only way to account for the fine tuning of our universe..there are only 3 possibilities..
1. Random chance: Well, we just addressed this option..and to say not likely is the biggest understatement in the history of understatements.
If you have 1 chance in 10^10^123 to accomplish something, it is safe to say IT AIN'T HAPPENING.
2. Necessity: This option is a no-go..because the constants and parameters could have been any values..in other words, it wasn't necessary for the parameters to have those specific values at the onset of the big bang.
3. Design: Bingo. First off, since the first two options are negated, then #3 wins by default...and no explanation is even needed, as it logically follows that #3 wins (whether we like it or not). However, I will provide a little insight.
You see, the constants and values which govern our universe had to have been set, as an INITIAL CONDITION of the big bang. By "set", I mean selectively chosen.
It is impossible for mother nature to have pre-selected anything, because nature is exactly what came in to being at the moment of the big bang.
So, not only (if intelligent design is negated) do we have a singularity sitting around for eons and expanding for reasons which cannot be determined (which is part of the absurdity), but we also have this singularity expanding with very low entropy (10^10^!23), which completely defies everything we know about entropy, to a degree which has never been duplicated since.
So, we have a positive reasons to believe in intelligent design...an intelligent design...a Cosmic Creator/Engineer...
We have positive reasons to believe in a God of the universe.
In closing...
1. No need to downplay fine tuning, because in the wiki article, you will see the fact that scientists are scrambling to try to find an explanation for fine tuning..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... planations
If there was no fine tuning, then you wouldn't need offer any explanations to explain it away, now would you?
2. Unless you can provide a fourth option to the above three options, then please spare me the "but there may be more options" stuff.
If that is what you believe, then tell me what they are, and I will gladly ADD THEM TO THE LIST AND EXPLAIN WHY THEY ALSO FAIL.
3. 10^10^123. Ouch.
Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #272[Replying to William in post #271]
Sounds like it was made in a basement by some guy aspiring to be a rock star, nice effort but sounds too artificial, plastic - like a software package where you set some parameters and it generates the rhythms etc.
Try this
I was born in Liverpool in 1959, my mother performed with the Beatles once in France, I was immersed in 1960s culture.
We had a unique TV show "Old Grey Whistle Test" classic stuff, my mother and friends used to watch the show smoking "stuff" and I was allowed to sit in the corner and watch the TV, I was nine or ten I guess.
Sounds like it was made in a basement by some guy aspiring to be a rock star, nice effort but sounds too artificial, plastic - like a software package where you set some parameters and it generates the rhythms etc.
Try this
I was born in Liverpool in 1959, my mother performed with the Beatles once in France, I was immersed in 1960s culture.
We had a unique TV show "Old Grey Whistle Test" classic stuff, my mother and friends used to watch the show smoking "stuff" and I was allowed to sit in the corner and watch the TV, I was nine or ten I guess.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #273I see you're a man with impeccable taste in music
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #274[Replying to Inquirer in post #272]
I like the words and the music - I get the gist...
As Christians would say - "Jesus loved the lepers... he wasn't into polish and presentation..."
How about this;
Yes - I understand this is correct. Home recording -Sounds like it was made in a basement
Nah. He didn't like the industry - the criminal element pulling strings behind the scenes...I will let him know someone thinks he was rock-star material...he will chuckle about that...by some guy aspiring to be a rock star,
Yep. The guy is a musician songwriter rather than a sound engineer - in the right hands it would sound heaps better. He did play all the music and write all the midi...nice effort but sounds too artificial, plastic - like a software package where you set some parameters and it generates the rhythms etc.
I like the words and the music - I get the gist...
As Christians would say - "Jesus loved the lepers... he wasn't into polish and presentation..."
How about this;
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #275Network was glitching, so I couldn't pay my proper respects.
I wish I had half the talent. Seems like a really cool guy
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #276Larry, who I've seen in concert at least 5 times, had an astonishing ability to emotionally sway his audience. However, his message was actually astonishingly simplistic. Look into Jesus and everything's gonna be okay. Yeah, not so much.
A great deal of this should be attributed to John Linn an extremely talented guitarist who is heard on many of Larry's recordings.
Tcg
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #278To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #279Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:30 pmI was the trailing "Yeah, not so much" that made no sense to me, sounds like a disagreement yet at the same time you seem to admire the dude, just not clear on what you were saying.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #280I propose that if your statement had it any substance, responses to it might need more of it.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:53 amYour post lacks substance, as usual.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:00 amAssumes facts not in evidence. Please demonstrate that the constants and parameters could have been any values. So far, that is an unsupported assumption.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:19 pm 2. Necessity: This option is a no-go..because the constants and parameters could have been any values..in other words, it wasn't necessary for the parameters to have those specific values at the onset of the big bang.
Just the same ole atheistic "You have no evidence" 2-5 sentence quip.
If your argument can be so solidly refuted in a "2-5 sentence quip", that right there indicates the weakness of your argument.
Might as well, you've got no other argument than to be upset at how your argument was defeated by means you consider beneath their dignity.Smh.
Whether it "had to be here", or not, is not dependent on invisible sky daddies.Anyways, the entire universe is contingent, it had a beginning..it didnt have to be here.
"If" is a poor means of establishing truth.If the universe is contingent, then the laws which govern it also must also be contingent.
As above, "had to", or not, doesn't require invisible beings to be the cause.Life did not have to be here...and if life did not have to be here, then life isn't metaphysically necessary..which is the main/only point of option #2.
LolAnd btw, I am certainly not going to debate the finitude of the universe, not with you.
Why not? Because history has shown that you are either unwilling or incapable of having an in depth conversation about these subjects.
Give me a hundred on brunumb.
You might do better to argue the words, and not the how many of em.I may have such discussions with someone else, and I predict you will peek your head in the discussion for an occasional typical 4 sentence paragraph.
I won't deb8 u coZ yUo don't Ddeb8 iN a WAY that Brings me comfort!That is all you've done thus far during my tenure on this forum, and I don't expect anything different.
It's incredible the amount, and variicity of theist excuses to avoid debate on a debate site.
I already addressed this (predicted it) in the latter part of the OP.brunumb wrote: The same goes for fine-tuning itself. We don't even know that any sort of tuning was involved since we don't have any deep knowledge of the actual process involved in the formation of the universe.
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