On one hand we have Jesus teaching about non-violence and turning the other cheek.
“38 “You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.� (Matthew 5:38–41)
On the other hand we have this story:
A man is killed for not wanting to strike a prophet when was asked to do so by the prophet himself.
The prophet wanted a good disguise when he met King Ahab, and he figured a wound would help. So he wanted his neighbor to cut his face, so he could put a bandage on it, so King Ahab wouldn't recognize him when he saw him.
Anyway, this prick of a prophet found another guy who was willing to smite him.
“35 Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!� But the man refused to strike the prophet. 36 Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.� And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.
37 Then he found another man, and said, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man smote him, so that in smiting he wounded him.
38 So the prophet departed, and waited for the king by the way, and disguised himself with ashes upon his face.�
(1 Kings 20:35-38)
This story is so ridiculous, illogical and in contradiction with what Jesus thought that my brain hurt so bad after reading it.
Q: The best way to disguise yourself is to cut your face? Wait what?:))
Q: Why not just put a bandage on your face without the cut?
Q: Why not cover your face, change cloths, cut your hair, facial hair?
Q: Why not cut yourself if you can’t think of anything better cuz your no more brighter then a rock?
Q: But wait the most intelligent, wiser, most powerful being in the universe couldn’t have thought of something else? How is that possible?
Q: But wait the most intelligent, wiser, most powerful and compassionate being in the universe kills the man for refusing to engage in violent behavior and while later the same being taught about non-violence? How is that possible?
Q: What about his right to exercise his free will by choosing not to strike? He is not allowed to refuse? So much for free will, huh?
The only reasonable conclusion is that this stories don’t have anything to do with an all powerful, all wise, all merciful, omniscient, omnibenevolent, creator of the universe. These are just actions of stupid, delusional, sociopathic people.
Imagine this dialogue:
Prophet: Hey neighbor come here for a second.
Neighbor: Hey, what’s up?
Prophet: Come here and cut my face.
Neighbor: Wait what? Are you serious? Why?
Prophet: Cut my face, man. This is a direct command from god. I need a disguise.
Neighbor: Just bandage your face with a cloth or cut your hair, facial hair, change your cloths.
Prophet: But God command it. You have to do it or else.
Neighbor: Get out here, man. I am not going to cut your face. What are you crazy? Cut your own face.
Prophet: Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.
And the neighbor leaves.
A lion comes later and kills the neighbor.
Killed by a lion!!!
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Killed by a lion!!!
Post #1"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
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Re: Killed by a lion!!!
Post #41I dont see anything wrong here ... its not an uncommon ploy to appear wounded to fool the enemy; I'm sure I've watched movies where a character asks his friend to punch him so he can work undercover...Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:44 am The theme is, you obey, even if you happen to think it's wrong.
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Re: Killed by a lion!!!
Post #42Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:44 am The theme is, you obey, even if you happen to think it's wrong.
It is why humans have created religions and why religions are such a useful tool to them.JehovahsWitness wrote:I dont see anything wrong here
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Imagine you wanted your people to kill a competing tribe and take their women and livestock. You would have the shaman (priest, pastor, Imam) claim it is what the god of your people wanted. Now obey, even if you think it is wrong. Perhaps suggest they even act like sheep.
Again, I acknowledge that you don't see anything wrong with this and this is where I must disagree with you. Blind obedience can lead to what I alluded to above.
Thankfully, in today's day and age, religion seems to be more about control and money then it is about killing off another tribe, but can we call that progress?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
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Re: Killed by a lion!!!
Post #43[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #1]
Hello there! I was wondering if you could please tell me what version of the Bible you referenced from? Thanks so much!
Hello there! I was wondering if you could please tell me what version of the Bible you referenced from? Thanks so much!
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Re: Killed by a lion!!!
Post #44I don't see why you have my comment in this post. I didnt actually refer to religion at all and since my point has not been challenged or refuted I can only conclude it stands as valid.Clownboat wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:31 pmPurple Knight wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:44 am The theme is, you obey, even if you happen to think it's wrong.It is why humans have created religions and why religions are such a useful tool to them.JehovahsWitness wrote:I dont see anything wrong here
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Imagine you wanted your people to kill a competing tribe and take their women and livestock. You would have the shaman (priest, pastor, Imam) claim it is what the god of your people wanted. Now obey, even if you think it is wrong. Perhaps suggest they even act like sheep.
Again, I acknowledge that you don't see anything wrong with this and this is where I must disagree with you. Blind obedience can lead to what I alluded to above.
Thankfully, in today's day and age, religion seems to be more about control and money then it is about killing off another tribe, but can we call that progress?
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:31 am ... its not an uncommon ploy to appear wounded to fool the enemy; I'm sure I've watched movies where a character asks his friend to punch him so he can work undercover...
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5 ... @._V1_.jpg
Most normal people have an internal mechanism which impedes self harm so reflexes will probably mean hitting youself in the face for example, would not be as effective as getting someone else to do it .... If you open yourself to the enemy to wound you, you risk being killed, if you walk into the set up unscathed, you look suspicious.
JW
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Re: Killed by a lion!!!
Post #45No worries as it was for the readers. I did not expect you to address the issues I put forth about blind obedience.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:05 am I don't see why you have my comment in this post. I didnt actually refer to religion at all and since my point has not been challenged or refuted I can only conclude it stands as valid.
Imagine you wanted your people to kill a competing tribe and take their women and livestock. You would have the shaman (priest, pastor, Imam) claim it is what the god of your people wanted. Now obey, even if you think it is wrong.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. Lucius Annaeus Seneca
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Re: Killed by a lion!!!
Post #46Ditto....Clownboat wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:10 amNo worries as it was for the readers.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:05 am I don't see why you have my comment in this post. I didnt actually refer to religion at all and since my point has not been challenged or refuted I can only conclude it stands as valid.
1 KINGS 20:35-38
35 By the word of the Lord one of the company of the prophets said to his companion, “Strike me with your weapon,” but he refused. 36 So the prophet said, “Because you have not obeyed the Lord, as soon as you leave me a lion will kill you.” And after the man went away, a lion found him and killed him. 37 The prophet found another man and said, “Strike me, please.” So the man struck him and wounded him. 38 Then the prophet went and stood by the road waiting for the king. He disguised himself with his headband down over his eyes.
WHY DID THE PROPHET ASK TO BE STRUCK?
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:31 am ... its not an uncommon ploy to appear wounded to fool the enemy; we even have movies scenes where the protagonist asks his friend to punch him so he can either fake fighting for a group he infiltrated or look authentic during a confrontation working undercover...
Most normal people have an internal mechanism which impedes self harm so reflexes will probably mean hitting youself in the face for example, would not be as effective as getting someone else to do it .... If you open yourself to the enemy to wound you, you risk being killed, if you walk into the set up unscathed, you look suspicious.
The prophets companion was condemned because he disobeyed a direct command from God. His refusal could have underminded the entire operation, endagering many lives as a consequence. He obviously lost Gods protection a dangerous thing when traveling through lion country.
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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Killed by a lion!!!
Post #47I don't see anything wrong about it either. If God tests anyone, obedience is the right answer and, "Hold on, but, I'm not supposed to..." is the wrong one.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:31 amI don't see anything wrong here ... its not an uncommon ploy to appear wounded to fool the enemy; I'm sure I've watched movies where a character asks his friend to punch him so he can work undercover...Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:44 am The theme is, you obey, even if you happen to think it's wrong.
It happens to be a problem for us because anyone can say they're a prophet, but the moral structure is not fundamentally inconsistent. Neither is it fundamentally wrong to have a moral structure that happens to be a problem for some. Both psychopaths and the mentally impaired lack at least one necessary element to comprehend morality.
Remember, the reasons or apparent reasons someone has put some premise forth does not mean that premise is false. To claim so is actually ad hominem. Now, I do argue that ad hominem shouldn't be a fallacy and I admit that, but it's still wholly possible that the greey-grubbiest teleminister is actually correct about what morality is.Clownboat wrote: ↑Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:31 pmPurple Knight wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:44 am The theme is, you obey, even if you happen to think it's wrong.It is why humans have created religions and why religions are such a useful tool to them.JehovahsWitness wrote:I dont see anything wrong here
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Imagine you wanted your people to kill a competing tribe and take their women and livestock. You would have the shaman (priest, pastor, Imam) claim it is what the god of your people wanted. Now obey, even if you think it is wrong. Perhaps suggest they even act like sheep.
If God has made the world thusly, on the premise of obedience to him being right, it's a problem for us because people can lie to us. But it's not an inconsistent moral structure. If we have a problem with this - with the fact that some people can't get the right answer except by guessing - then we should make a moral structure that makes sense to the psychopath, and one that the mentally retarded can understand to the same degree as those who would lie to him and exploit him. Since no one seems to be concerned with invalidating moral structures that for some people, require guessing and/or trust, I'll personally be laughing it up in Hell if the real moral structure makes everyone guess about who to trust.
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Re: Killed by a lion!!!
Post #48Exactly, the action was a logical ploy. Even a non believers watch movies.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:04 pmI don't see anything wrong about it either.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:31 am
... its not an uncommon ploy to appear wounded to fool the enemy; I'm sure I've watched movies where a character asks his friend to punch him so he can work undercover...
JW
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Re: Killed by a lion!!!
Post #49It was. The problem (and only for humans, mind you) comes when someone who happens not to be telling the truth about being a prophet asks for the same thing, or any other thing that takes the shape of someone claiming divine authority and amounts to you breaking a rule if you do it because he does not actually possess that authority. We might not be punished for it but if we heed the liar, thinking he is telling the truth, we have still done something wrong, haven't we?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:24 pmExactly, the action was a logical ploy. Even a non believers watch movies.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:04 pmI don't see anything wrong about it either.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:31 am
... its not an uncommon ploy to appear wounded to fool the enemy; I'm sure I've watched movies where a character asks his friend to punch him so he can work undercover...
However...
I don't have sympathy for those arguing from the nonfunctionality of a system that requires trust, because they develop systems requiring those who are less intelligent to trust them. Then they look up at this character in the Bible, called God, and scoff, for how dare he do that same thing back to them? If he's so smart, he really should understand that we're not, shouldn't he? I think that's what having a two-by-four in your own eye is talking about.
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Re: Killed by a lion!!!
Post #50Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:08 amIt was. ...JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:24 pmExactly, the action was a logical ploy. Even a non believers watch movies.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:04 pmI don't see anything wrong about it either.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:31 am
... its not an uncommon ploy to appear wounded to fool the enemy; I'm sure I've watched movies where a character asks his friend to punch him so he can work undercover...
And that is the point. The OP was implying there was no rhyme or reason to the prophets request and I agree with you that there was a solid and logical reason to what was being asked. A reason the even non believers employ under similar circumstances.
Thanks,
JW
Why did the Prophet ask his companion to strike him? [1 KINGS 20:35-38]
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8