Would someone die for a lie?

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Tcg
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Would someone die for a lie?

Post #1

Post by Tcg »

.

A common apologetic is that the authors of the N.T. wouldn't die for what they knew was a lie. One problem is that perhaps other than Paul we don't really know who those authors were. The other problem is that we don't really know that they did die for that reason. Well, yet another problem is that perhaps people do die for a lie. My primary query though is that couldn't people die for what they are mistaken about?

Maybe Peter, who I think is recorded in the Bible as dying for his faith, was mistaken. He (assuming the story is true) didn't necessarily die for a lie. Maybe he was simply wrong about the Jesus story.

Couldn't someone die for what they are mistaken about? And if they could, isn't it a weak apologetic to claim someone wouldn't chose to die because of it?


Tcg
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Re: Would someone die for a lie?

Post #2

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:34 am .

A common apologetic is that the authors of the N.T. wouldn't die for what they knew was a lie. One problem is that perhaps other than Paul we don't really know who those authors were. The other problem is that we don't really know that they did die for that reason. Well, yet another problem is that perhaps people do die for a lie. My primary query though is that couldn't people die for what they are mistaken about?

Maybe Peter, who I think is recorded in the Bible as dying for his faith, was mistaken. He (assuming the story is true) didn't necessarily die for a lie. Maybe he was simply wrong about the Jesus story.

Couldn't someone die for what they are mistaken about? And if they could, isn't it a weak apologetic to claim someone wouldn't chose to die because of it?


Tcg
People can (and do) die for what they are mistaken about (just as people die for what they believe, though that does not make the object of their belief real).

But I think the common apologetic is meant only to counter the claim that the authors made UP the story... and therefore KNEW that it was false (like you said). Why be willing to die and be persecuted, imprisoned and perhaps tortured... all for something you know is false? Being willing to die for someone real, someone you love, knowing (or even just believing) that you will be resurrected... that is one thing. Dying for a fake person/story you invented, without the hope of the resurrection that comes with your fake story... that's not so likely.

So that apologetic does not cover mistaken belief. That being said, people like Peter (eyewitnesses) didn't believe a story someone else told them; they believed what they heard and saw for themselves. So either Peter (and others like him) saw and heard these things, and were therefore willing to die based on the truth and evidence of what they had seen and heard. Or they were lying from the get-go about seeing and hearing these things... in which case, why die for something you know is a lie?

(Christ explains to Peter about the kind of death he would later experience at the end of the book of "John", but there is no other mention in the Bible of Peter dying. Perhaps you were thinking about Stephen?)


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Re: Would someone die for a lie?

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

But of course this assumes that the disciples did suffer and die rather than deny the resurrection (which is what the apologetic is all about). We have no Bible assurance that any disciple died rather than deny the resurrection. We have the death of James (son of Zebedee) in Acts and the various imprisonments with miraculous releases and frankly I do not trust Acts at all.

So as usual, the believers will say "Well, I believe all of it including the Church stories of martyrdoms" Sure,but what they believe validates nothing. Doubters look for validation of this 'disciples died for the Truth (of the resurection, usualluy) and there really is none.

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Re: Would someone die for a lie?

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Post by Tcg »

tam wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:05 am Peace to you,
Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:34 am .

A common apologetic is that the authors of the N.T. wouldn't die for what they knew was a lie. One problem is that perhaps other than Paul we don't really know who those authors were. The other problem is that we don't really know that they did die for that reason. Well, yet another problem is that perhaps people do die for a lie. My primary query though is that couldn't people die for what they are mistaken about?

Maybe Peter, who I think is recorded in the Bible as dying for his faith, was mistaken. He (assuming the story is true) didn't necessarily die for a lie. Maybe he was simply wrong about the Jesus story.

Couldn't someone die for what they are mistaken about? And if they could, isn't it a weak apologetic to claim someone wouldn't chose to die because of it?


Tcg
People can (and do) die for what they are mistaken about (just as people die for what they believe, though that does not make the object of their belief real).

But I think the common apologetic is meant only to counter the claim that the authors made UP the story... and therefore KNEW that it was false (like you said). Why be willing to die and be persecuted, imprisoned and perhaps tortured... all for something you know is false? Being willing to die for someone real, someone you love, knowing (or even just believing) that you will be resurrected... that is one thing. Dying for a fake person/story you invented, without the hope of the resurrection that comes with your fake story... that's not so likely.

So that apologetic does not cover mistaken belief. That being said, people like Peter (eyewitnesses) didn't believe a story someone else told them; they believed what they heard and saw for themselves. So either Peter (and others like him) saw and heard these things, and were therefore willing to die based on the truth and evidence of what they had seen and heard. Or they were lying from the get-go about seeing and hearing these things... in which case, why die for something you know is a lie?

(Christ explains to Peter about the kind of death he would later experience at the end of the book of "John", but there is no other mention in the Bible of Peter dying. Perhaps you were thinking about Stephen?)


Peace again to you!
Peace to you as well. Maybe I'm mixed up about this, Bible college was a few decades ago. I thought Peter was reportedly hung upside down as he didn't want to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord. Of course, whether or not it was reported in the Bible rather than elsewhere doesn't prove that it was true.


Tcg
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- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Would someone die for a lie?

Post #5

Post by tam »

Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:35 pm
tam wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:05 am Peace to you,
Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:34 am .

A common apologetic is that the authors of the N.T. wouldn't die for what they knew was a lie. One problem is that perhaps other than Paul we don't really know who those authors were. The other problem is that we don't really know that they did die for that reason. Well, yet another problem is that perhaps people do die for a lie. My primary query though is that couldn't people die for what they are mistaken about?

Maybe Peter, who I think is recorded in the Bible as dying for his faith, was mistaken. He (assuming the story is true) didn't necessarily die for a lie. Maybe he was simply wrong about the Jesus story.

Couldn't someone die for what they are mistaken about? And if they could, isn't it a weak apologetic to claim someone wouldn't chose to die because of it?


Tcg
People can (and do) die for what they are mistaken about (just as people die for what they believe, though that does not make the object of their belief real).

But I think the common apologetic is meant only to counter the claim that the authors made UP the story... and therefore KNEW that it was false (like you said). Why be willing to die and be persecuted, imprisoned and perhaps tortured... all for something you know is false? Being willing to die for someone real, someone you love, knowing (or even just believing) that you will be resurrected... that is one thing. Dying for a fake person/story you invented, without the hope of the resurrection that comes with your fake story... that's not so likely.

So that apologetic does not cover mistaken belief. That being said, people like Peter (eyewitnesses) didn't believe a story someone else told them; they believed what they heard and saw for themselves. So either Peter (and others like him) saw and heard these things, and were therefore willing to die based on the truth and evidence of what they had seen and heard. Or they were lying from the get-go about seeing and hearing these things... in which case, why die for something you know is a lie?

(Christ explains to Peter about the kind of death he would later experience at the end of the book of "John", but there is no other mention in the Bible of Peter dying. Perhaps you were thinking about Stephen?)


Peace again to you!
Peace to you as well. Maybe I'm mixed up about this, Bible college was a few decades ago. I thought Peter was reportedly hung upside down as he didn't want to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord. Of course, whether or not it was reported in the Bible rather than elsewhere doesn't prove that it was true.


Tcg
Thank you, and yes, I have heard that story as well. The bible is not the origin though. It appears (from a quick google search) that there is an apocryphal book that claims he asks for this (without giving a reason why).


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Re: Would someone die for a lie?

Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

People are willing to die (or kill) for that in which they genuinily believe. That belief may or may not be factually true, it may or may not be a reflection of reality, but nobody voluntarily gives up their life without genuine belief their cause is true.
The distinction can be illustrated by the Natalie Zemon Davis book "Le Retour de Martin Guerre" (later made into the film Sommerby with Richard Gere and Jodi Foster ). The central character might on the surface seem to be dying to uphold a "lie" (which amounted to identity theft), but he is in fact not dying for that lie, but rather he is willing to die for a concealed truth that he genuinely believes in, namely the need to protect those he came to love.

Whether the cause is good or evil, being willing to die for any cause is indicative of profound belief. Sceptics do well to ask what inspired such belief in the early church leadership.





JW



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Re: Would someone die for a lie?

Post #7

Post by Tcg »

tam wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:22 pm
Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:35 pm
tam wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:05 am Peace to you,
Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:34 am .

A common apologetic is that the authors of the N.T. wouldn't die for what they knew was a lie. One problem is that perhaps other than Paul we don't really know who those authors were. The other problem is that we don't really know that they did die for that reason. Well, yet another problem is that perhaps people do die for a lie. My primary query though is that couldn't people die for what they are mistaken about?

Maybe Peter, who I think is recorded in the Bible as dying for his faith, was mistaken. He (assuming the story is true) didn't necessarily die for a lie. Maybe he was simply wrong about the Jesus story.

Couldn't someone die for what they are mistaken about? And if they could, isn't it a weak apologetic to claim someone wouldn't chose to die because of it?


Tcg
People can (and do) die for what they are mistaken about (just as people die for what they believe, though that does not make the object of their belief real).

But I think the common apologetic is meant only to counter the claim that the authors made UP the story... and therefore KNEW that it was false (like you said). Why be willing to die and be persecuted, imprisoned and perhaps tortured... all for something you know is false? Being willing to die for someone real, someone you love, knowing (or even just believing) that you will be resurrected... that is one thing. Dying for a fake person/story you invented, without the hope of the resurrection that comes with your fake story... that's not so likely.

So that apologetic does not cover mistaken belief. That being said, people like Peter (eyewitnesses) didn't believe a story someone else told them; they believed what they heard and saw for themselves. So either Peter (and others like him) saw and heard these things, and were therefore willing to die based on the truth and evidence of what they had seen and heard. Or they were lying from the get-go about seeing and hearing these things... in which case, why die for something you know is a lie?

(Christ explains to Peter about the kind of death he would later experience at the end of the book of "John", but there is no other mention in the Bible of Peter dying. Perhaps you were thinking about Stephen?)


Peace again to you!
Peace to you as well. Maybe I'm mixed up about this, Bible college was a few decades ago. I thought Peter was reportedly hung upside down as he didn't want to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord. Of course, whether or not it was reported in the Bible rather than elsewhere doesn't prove that it was true.


Tcg
Thank you, and yes, I have heard that story as well. The bible is not the origin though. It appears (from a quick google search) that there is an apocryphal book that claims he asks for this (without giving a reason why).


Peace again!
Peace to you. I remember the story of poor Stephen being stoned, but I was thinking that one of the 12 disciples' death was documented in the Bible. I always found it odd that so many would claim that all or most of the disciples died because of their faith and yet base that claim on non-canonical writings. Writings they may have or probably considered unreliable as far as other claims they made.


Tcg
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- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Would someone die for a lie?

Post #8

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Tam made a good point (that I'd forgotten). It was implied (in the mother of the sons of Zebedee) that they would suffer the same fate as Jesus (1). Acts actually Acts out the death of James (son of Zebedee) in a rather dubious way. I don't trust Acts at all, not in the death of Judas, not in the hammock of wrigglies, the conversion of Paul, The apostles rubber -stamping Paul's mission or indeed anything else in it, apart from what Luke used fro Paul's letters to construct his biographical novel.

So at best we have a Biblical (unlike any of the other Church traditions) of James and John being done to death. I recall that Hegesippus talks of James the Just being thrown from a tower, but that's apparently the brother of Jesus, not the son of Zebedee. And there's also the later claim that some Church father knew someone who was a pupil of John who presumably is the other son of Zebedee, who hadn't been killed. So it isn't at all clear that the claim that any of the disciples dies for anything other than having run out of life is to be credited.

(1) here's a thought. The 'same fate' as Jesus would be, wouldn't it, being crucified along with Jesus. One on each side.

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Re: Would someone die for a lie?

Post #9

Post by Peds nurse »

People die for a lot of things, true or false. As far as Christianity is concerned, I offer a counter thought. What if it isn't about Paul believing a lie and more about those that persecuted him not believing the truth?

As Christians, we don't regard the apostles as dying for what they believed as much as living for who they believed in.

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Re: Would someone die for a lie?

Post #10

Post by Miles »

Tcg wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:34 am .

A common apologetic is that the authors of the N.T. wouldn't die for what they knew was a lie.
I take dying for a lie as dying for something one knows is a lie. If one is mistaken about something that's put out as truth, but is actually a lie, that's a whole different animal.

One problem is that perhaps other than Paul we don't really know who those authors were. The other problem is that we don't really know that they did die for that reason. Well, yet another problem is that perhaps people do die for a lie. My primary query though is that couldn't people die for what they are mistaken about?
Absolutely. Millions have died in wars and such because they believed what their lying leaders convinced them was true.

Maybe Peter, who I think is recorded in the Bible as dying for his faith, was mistaken. He (assuming the story is true) didn't necessarily die for a lie. Maybe he was simply wrong about the Jesus story.
A very reasonable conjecture.

Couldn't someone die for what they are mistaken about? And if they could, isn't it a weak apologetic to claim someone wouldn't chose to die because of it?
It is.

.

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