The problem of evil

[William]

Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?

The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}

[brunumb]

Murder is wrong, but not a problem, because this life is just temporary phase anyway. Murdered person could have eternal life with God after this, that is why I think it is just a temporary problem.

So it is not a problem, but then it is a temporary problem. Talk about having your cake and eating it too. And what if the murder victim does not get eternal life with God? The pretzel thinking that goes on to try and justify religious beliefs never ceases to amaze me.

[TRANSPONDER]

Atheist: [Statements about the Bible and stuff like that]

[Replying to 1213 in post #25]

Theist: I don't think there is anything in the Bible to support that claim.

William: Maybe it isn't really a claim but just a statement of opinion...

[593]
Opinion is that which has yet to be established as a matter of fact
Is the statement one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion]
Maybe it isn't really a claim but just a statement of opinion...

And maybe the above statement is dismissing the evidence in favour of Faithbased thinking, dismissing (scientific) evidence as 'opinion'. We've seen a fair bit of it thus far..

The story <Genesis> tells they wanted to know evil.

That’s an inaccurate claim. Genesis 3:6 actually says:

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

<bolding mine>

The distinction is important because Eve here is clearly motivated to attain wisdom - something that the Bible places great store in. See for example, James 1:5, Proverbs 4:7 and Proverbs 16:16.
...

And what does the wisdom mean? It means the knowledge of good and evil, because:

...for God knows that in the day you eat it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit of it, and ate; and she gave some to her husband with her, and he ate...
Gen. 3:5-6

No.That isn't wisdom. It is knowledge. Something is known....

But they are usually connected, wisdom can come when person knows, which is why I think Eve connected the knowledge to wisdom in that.

Wisdom is understanding and the Bible has never been great on understanding. It rather shakes its' head over Understanding and the Wise, and prefers unquestioning trust in whatever they are told to do, like little children.

I think that is silly and ignorant claim, because Bible says:

Instead, test everything. Hold on to what is good, but keep away from every kind of evil.
First Epistle to the Thessalonians 5:21

If therefore they tell you, ‘Behold, he is in the wilderness,’ don’t go out; ‘Behold, he is in the inner chambers,’ don’t believe it.
Matt. 24:26

Beloved, don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 Joh. 4:1

Now the natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one. “For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him?” But we have Christ’s mind.
1 Kor. 2:13-16

Without getting into the whole Eden fairy story and how (if one credited it) it had to be set up by God to make sure humans sinned and died, the message is, don't think and do what you are told. Anything else is sin.

I don't think there is anything in the Bible to support that claim.

You're missing the point - wisdom and knowledge can be and should be connected but often is not. Humans too often opt for person opinions which they cling to and dismiss any counter information. This is the epitome of Faithbased thinking and is what Bible advocates and in the words of Jesus, ('be like this little child' 'God has hidden the truth from the wise') not some hangers - on epistle.

Probably the most infamous quote from the Bible after "The fool hath said..." Matthew 11.25 "At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."
The Matthew and John quote are just examples of faithbased thinking "If the information conflicts with your beliefs, reject it"

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to 1213 in post #22]

Murder, rape and torture are evil and wrong. People should not do those. But, evil is not a problem, because it is just a temporary thing

Let’s follow your logic. Murder is evil. Evil is not a problem because it is temporary. So the person who’s been murdered only has a ‘temporary’ problem? Is that it?

I noticed that you didn’t answer the first question in my post. Would you care to do so now?

Murder is wrong, but not a problem, because this life is just temporary phase anyway. Murdered person could have eternal life with God after this, that is why I think it is just a temporary problem.

Thank you for posting just one more reason why I am truly thankful not to be a Christian.

[otseng]

I thought I would post these evidential results - things I have on my list to date which correspond mathematically with the word-string "The problem of evil"...

The problem of evil = 183
[183]
Fling That Veil Aside
Learn to trust
Transformation
Embracing your life
Test The Waters
Team Witch-Wizard
Elemental Powers
The brain as a receiver
The Hubble Telescope
Manifest Destiny
Sister Saturn
Children of The Light
Planned obsolescence
Cosmic Pluralism
Truthfulness
Hydrogen and helium

One Eight Three = 139

[139]
Awakening Love

Moderator Comment

13. Posts that do not meet the minimum level of readability and comprehensibility can get deleted without notice and can result in an immediate member ban.

Not that you're going to get banned, but this post was reported to not meet the above rule and I would tend to agree. If you post things like above, posting in the Random Rambling subforum will allow for greater freedom, rather than posting in a debate thread.

Please review the Rules.



______________



Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[TRANSPONDER]

I thought I would post these evidential results - things I have on my list to date which correspond mathematically with the word-string "The problem of evil"...

The problem of evil = 183
[183]
Fling That Veil Aside
Learn to trust
Transformation
Embracing your life
Test The Waters
Team Witch-Wizard
Elemental Powers
The brain as a receiver
The Hubble Telescope
Manifest Destiny
Sister Saturn
Children of The Light
Planned obsolescence
Cosmic Pluralism
Truthfulness
Hydrogen and helium

One Eight Three = 139

[139]
Awakening Love

Moderator Comment

13. Posts that do not meet the minimum level of readability and comprehensibility can get deleted without notice and can result in an immediate member ban.

Not that you're going to get banned, but this post was reported to not meet the above rule and I would tend to agree. If you post things like above, posting in the Random Rambling subforum will allow for greater freedom, rather than posting in a debate thread.

Please review the Rules.



______________



Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Thank you. We have disagreed on a lot but you nailed it here. I was tempted to post 'Just what does any of that mean?' but i could see the response 'Well clearly if you don't have the wit to see the point..' It's a trick I've seen a couple of times before.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #35]


I assure the readers that there was no trickster intent in my posting evidence of word-strings which add up to the same value.
I will take onboard the advice osteng gives and will make sure when I post equal value word-strings which are obviously relevant to the subject at hand so that everything remains at or above the minimum level of readability and comprehensibility, as I did when I posted same-value word-strings in post #26

[William]

Atheist: [Statements about the Bible and stuff like that]

[Replying to 1213 in post #25]

Theist: I don't think there is anything in the Bible to support that claim.

William: Maybe it isn't really a claim but just a statement of opinion...

[593]
Opinion is that which has yet to be established as a matter of fact
Is the statement one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion]
Maybe it isn't really a claim but just a statement of opinion...

And maybe the above statement is dismissing the evidence in favour of Faithbased thinking,

Maybe. Maybe not. 'maybe's' don't 'make it so'.

If one states "they don't think there is anything in the Bible to support that claim." the other can provide the evidence to support the claim, while also showing the statement of opinion comes from being misinformed.
Until the evidence is presented, the member has the right to say so or even ask for the supporting evidence.

I myself do not see how faith-based thinking [and subsequent expression] can ever be viewed as anything other than statements of opinion.

Faith-Based thinking appears to be connected with Unus Mundus - (Latin for "One world") which is an underlying concept of Western philosophy, theology, and alchemy, of a primordial unified reality from which everything derives.

dismissing (scientific) evidence as 'opinion'.

What evidence cannot be said to be (scientific) evidence? What evidence from Bible, was given to support that claim, which you believe has been 'dismissed'?

We've seen a fair bit of it thus far..

That is an example of a statement of opinion, rather than an example of a supported claim.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #35]


I assure the readers that there was no trickster intent in my posting evidence of word-strings which add up to the same value.
I will take onboard the advice osteng gives and will make sure when I post equal value word-strings which are obviously relevant to the subject at hand so that everything remains at or above the minimum level of readability and comprehensibility, as I did when I posted same-value word-strings in post #26

Ok. It would avoid any problems to explain exactly what the point is. You may have done this before in other posts, but we don't all have total recall. I still don't quite follow the point as it is. Them bites have the same synonym structure? But that's of no significance.

My son has a Van Gogh in his bedroom

My cat has a batchelors' degree in military history

May have the same synonym structure but one could be true and the other unlikely. Further explanation could clarify it (The Van Gogh is a repro and the degree was conferred on the cat as an academic spoof) Just posting a chain of comments and leaving us to guess at the argument is unhelpful and attracts the attention of the Mods.

[TRANSPONDER]

Atheist: [Statements about the Bible and stuff like that]

[Replying to 1213 in post #25]

Theist: I don't think there is anything in the Bible to support that claim.

William: Maybe it isn't really a claim but just a statement of opinion...

[593]
Opinion is that which has yet to be established as a matter of fact
Is the statement one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion]
Maybe it isn't really a claim but just a statement of opinion...

And maybe the above statement is dismissing the evidence in favour of Faithbased thinking,

Maybe. Maybe not. 'maybe's' don't 'make it so'.

If one states "they don't think there is anything in the Bible to support that claim." the other can provide the evidence to support the claim, while also showing the statement of opinion comes from being misinformed.
Until the evidence is presented, the member has the right to say so or even ask for the supporting evidence.

I myself do not see how faith-based thinking [and subsequent expression] can ever be viewed as anything other than statements of opinion.

Faith-Based thinking appears to be connected with Unus Mundus - (Latin for "One world") which is an underlying concept of Western philosophy, theology, and alchemy, of a primordial unified reality from which everything derives.

dismissing (scientific) evidence as 'opinion'.

What evidence cannot be said to be (scientific) evidence? What evidence from Bible, was given to support that claim, which you believe has been 'dismissed'?

We've seen a fair bit of it thus far..

That is an example of a statement of opinion, rather than an example of a supported claim.

The One World Philosophy seems irrelevant to me. We live on the same planet, we share the same biosphere. It doesn't need Wittgenstein to tell us that. Any other significance should be explained, not posted and we are left to try to guess the significance.

As to science denial, we have seen it here in various YE arguments. We have also seen something similar (your point that evidence is 'science' so to speak, is a relevant one) that the Bible does show God as endorsing slavery, repenting the Flood and saying that Tyre would remain desolate. Given that the counters are not well known, once they have been posted, attempts to argue against those demonstrable facts is tantamount to science denial. Same with a Genesis 'day' is not the age of the universe divided into 7, the nativity cannot possibly be true and the resurrection accounts really do terminally contradict is demonstrably so and to argue against it is science denial, even if efforts are made to invent excuses. That's my Opinion, of course, but I'm sticking to it.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #39]

That's my Opinion, of course, but I'm sticking to it.

Of course. I wasn't arguing one should or shouldn't stick to whatever they want to stick to.

I was pointing out that any faith-based statements are statements of opinion and it is my opinion it is silly to moan about lack of scientific evidence.