The problem of evil

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The problem of evil

Post #1

Post by William »

Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?
The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}
Last edited by William on Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #41

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:25 am ...
Probably the most infamous quote from the Bible after "The fool hath said..." Matthew 11.25 "At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."...
Yes, but the "wise" of the world are actually quite stupid and ignorant, all though they themselves think they are wise and believe they know a lot. Bible and God are not against true wisdom, because it is offered freely for anyone who wants it:

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #42

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:09 am ...
And what if the murder victim does not get eternal life with God? ....
Then the real problem in Biblical point of view is that he is not righteous.

But, if person gets eternal life, why would the murder be a problem for him?

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #43

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:49 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:25 am ...
Probably the most infamous quote from the Bible after "The fool hath said..." Matthew 11.25 "At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."...
Yes, but the "wise" of the world are actually quite stupid and ignorant, all though they themselves think they are wise and believe they know a lot. Bible and God are not against true wisdom, because it is offered freely for anyone who wants it:

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5
I get what you mean, but the Biblical idea that the childlike unknowing are wiser because God hath revealed stuff to them is simply false, and no amount of Biblequotes will make it true.
1213 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:49 am
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:09 am ...
And what if the murder victim does not get eternal life with God? ....
Then the real problem in Biblical point of view is that he is not righteous.

But, if person gets eternal life, why would the murder be a problem for him?
I get what you mean there, too, But this nasty idea hanging about in the social wings that it's ok to kill people because they'll go to heaven or if not they deserved to die anyway, is one of the most hateful things about religion and is another reason why (since I do not believe that disgusting justification for religious murder) I am very glad I that am not religious.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #44

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:49 am
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:09 am ...
And what if the murder victim does not get eternal life with God? ....
Then the real problem in Biblical point of view is that he is not righteous.

But, if person gets eternal life, why would the murder be a problem for him?
No one is righteous according to the bible. That aside, everyone is entitled to live their life without having it snatched away by the evil actions of someone else. Even if the victim gets eternal life, what about their life on earth? Doesn't that count for anything? What about their friends and family? Is this what Christianity does to people? Your approach to this is actually making me feel sick inside. I'm glad I don't share the same mind set.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #45

Post by Tcg »

1213 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:49 am But, if person gets eternal life, why would the murder be a problem for him?
You've not provided any reason the think that anyone gets eternal life. But to answer your question anyway, it may not be a problem for them other than their life being unjustly being cut short, but unless they live in a vacuum, it most certainly would be a problem for those who loved and cared for the murder victim. Of course, if one's standard is based on the callousness Bible God displays, maybe causing intense pain for others and stealing (what is likely the only one they'll have) the life of another is no big deal.


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Re: The problem of evil

Post #46

Post by TRANSPONDER »

brunumb wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:07 am
1213 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:49 am
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:09 am ...
And what if the murder victim does not get eternal life with God? ....
Then the real problem in Biblical point of view is that he is not righteous.

But, if person gets eternal life, why would the murder be a problem for him?
No one is righteous according to the bible. That aside, everyone is entitled to live their life without having it snatched away by the evil actions of someone else. Even if the victim gets eternal life, what about their life on earth? Doesn't that count for anything? What about their friends and family? Is this what Christianity does to people? Your approach to this is actually making me feel sick inside. I'm glad I don't share the same mind set.
It is where we end up surprisingly often and I won't mention several examples that I have in mind, but this last resort that we are all wicked and we all deserve everything that we may get is - as I say - surprisingly often the last resort of excuses for the problem of evil. It's revolting even if true. If not it is why religion that has taken that turn is nasty even assuming it doesn't take an active part in which case there should be legal consequences.
Tcg wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:27 am
1213 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:49 am But, if person gets eternal life, why would the murder be a problem for him?
You've not provided any reason the think that anyone gets eternal life. But to answer your question anyway, it may not be a problem for them other than their life being unjustly being cut short, but unless they live in a vacuum, it most certainly would be a problem for those who loved and cared for the murder victim. Of course, if one's standard is based on the callousness Bible God displays, maybe causing intense pain for others and stealing (what is likely the only one they'll have) the life of another is no big deal.


Tcg
There does seem to be a noticeable element of 'I'm going to be ok, so let everyone else die' that is very problematical, as well as logically dubious. Unless ones' personality is totally taken away, how can heaven be heavenly if one is aware that the rest of humanity is being spit -roasted? One would have to be insanely psychotic for heaven to be anything but a torment.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #47

Post by William »

brunumb wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:07 am
1213 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:49 am
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:09 am ...
And what if the murder victim does not get eternal life with God? ....
Then the real problem in Biblical point of view is that he is not righteous.

But, if person gets eternal life, why would the murder be a problem for him?
No one is righteous according to the bible. That aside, everyone is entitled to live their life without having it snatched away by the evil actions of someone else. Even if the victim gets eternal life, what about their life on earth? Doesn't that count for anything? What about their friends and family? Is this what Christianity does to people? Your approach to this is actually making me feel sick inside. I'm glad I don't share the same mind set.

[05:45] Mother and her two children are shot dead by husband/father: She has a NDE and meets Jesus...
[08:20]...
It was then that I realized that I wasn't dreaming, I was dead
"My Kids!?!" I said, looking at Jesus.
I could tell by the expression he made, that they were gone
"Why? Why did you give them to me only to take them away?" I asked.
"That is what they wanted. They chose this ending for themselves."
"Wait. What do you mean they chose this?"
"Every Soul contracts Itself through My Father.
Earth is not your final destination.
Your final destination is to ultimately rejoin with My Father, after you have learned and experienced life"
Stunned, I said back
"That makes no sense Lord. If every Soul is contracted through Your Father, then that means he allows people like Hitler to exist. Why?"
"My daughter, you are not the first to ask these questions, and you will not be the last. All Souls are born with a blank slate. When a Soul wishes to experience life, they approach My Father, who grants them their wish of experiencing Life."
"Yes, but that means that you allow evil. Why? My Children died to evil. Why was that allowed?"
"The evil perpetrated against your children will not go unpunished. After his Soul has been cleansed he will rejoin My Father."
"What about the Lake of Fire and all that?"
"The Lake of Fire is a metaphor for what those Souls that are deemed evil, will go through. It will feel like an unending fire."
"Why did this have to happen? What did I do that was so wrong to be punished like this?"
"You are not being punished My Daughter. Though it might feel that way and you may experience this loss, it is not punishment. The Souls who were your Children were ready to come home."
"I still don't understand how any of this works!" I screamed.
"My Daughter, one day you will understand."
"So what happens now?"
"It is not your time to rejoin with My Father. You must return to your life and tell others what is to come."
"I don't want to return. I have lost everything. The two people most precious to me have been taken by someone who isn't even going to be punished for eternity. It seems like I am the one who is being punished by having to be sent back."
"My Daughter, just like the Souls of your Loved Ones, you too signed a contract with My Father. Your life experience isn't done."
"Well I want it to be! I don't want to go back without my kids!"
Jesus looked at me, hugged me, leaned forward and gently whispered in what would have been my ear.
"You must return. Do not worry. I will show you what awaits you when you go back...[10:49]

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #48

Post by TRANSPONDER »

[Replying to William in post #47]

Now it's my turn to share my panthers. If this is true I can do nothing. God can set it up how He likes and I can scream about injustice until I'm blue in the face.

But it still is injustice and assuring us that it will make sense answers nothing. It is the evasion of the swindler, the crooked politician and the exploiter in smothering protest for their own benefit. If they are a gang boss, a local warlord or a Dictator, they can just do it the way the bite the bullet apologist does - "There is nothing you can do about it, anyway."

But the point is that it isn't true, not on the evidence of the Bible; and the excuses, ostensibly for what God does that doesn't make sense and isn't moral, look like reasons to reject the claims that Biblegod is Good, His actions are moral and the problem of evil isn't a problem. It is and questioning all the claims is legitimate and (given that the bible doesn't look true anyway) good reason to reject the claims of the religion and the belief in its god, dogmas and doctrines. Which is why it is one of the recurring reasons to deconvert that I know of.

Some right away, some gradually through rejecting Eternal Torment (Hell) and then going onto Deism (rejecting religion). Bottom line - the Problem of Evil is a valid problem, and variants on 'God knows what he is doing, trust me', is nothing like an answer.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #49

Post by William »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #48

So if it turns out you will have a choice, you will chose to be cleansed and rejoined with The Father as if you had never existed or experienced anything?

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #50

Post by TRANSPONDER »

William wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:35 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #48

So if it turns out you will have a choice, you will chose to be cleansed and rejoined with The Father as if you had never existed or experienced anything?
It depends on which Father doesn't it? It depends on the deal, the small print, the conditions. Sure the true believer is sure it's going to be everything their hearts desire. But what if it isn't What if it's Allah and you're going to be scrubbing his floor for eternity while the faithful drink Shirab and read poetry, or it's Shiva and \you'll be stirring Ghee for eternity while the Hindus dine on starfruit while being fanned? At least in the Atheist Afterlife, we all get the same,. whatever it is. And if it it turns out to be Allah with an Ayatollah scowl demanding to know why the Christians didn't even consider the Quran, and give him one good reason why he shouldn't send you to Iblis. Then like me, they might well opt for oblivion, wouldn't you say?

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