The problem of evil

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William
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The problem of evil

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Post by William »

Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?
The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}
Last edited by William on Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #61

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:32 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:57 am ...But this nasty idea hanging about in the social wings that it's ok to kill people because they'll go to heaven...
It is not ok to murder anyone, for example because it is forbidden in the ten commandments.
Humans knew that even without the 10 commandments. They also know that it is ok to kill those who ask for it, and they didn't need the Bible to exemplify that. The conclusion is that the Bible was written by humans like any other, the moral codes are the same as other humans (aside putting religious Authority at the top) and the god of the Bible was made in the human image, not the other way around.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #62

Post by JoeyKnothead »

oldbadger wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 2:13 am I wonder how anybody can perceive that evil exists?
Get married?
oldbadger wrote: And who could be described as evil?
Ex spouses?
oldbadger wrote: Since Nature is the resident ruler around here there is not one animal, bug, virus or bacterium that is evil, they're all just trying to make babies and survive, is all.
Well said. I tend to avoid the term due to its religious conotations.
oldbadger wrote: And within Humanity I don't think that babies and children can be evil, even our laws protect them from responsibility for actions.
And those disabled by low intelligence quotients, and those afflicted by neurological disabilities, and ...on.....
You said a mouthful. If we're ignorant of God's understanding of evil, can we rightly be called evil?
oldbadger wrote: And so the only living creatures in this world that could be regarded as evil (if it exists) are those folks with high intelligence. But...No!
Dang smart people.
oldbadger wrote: All that exists in this World is the driving force of Nature and if Humanity cannot rise above that to better communal standards then we are stuck solid on the baseline.
Yup. With religious zealots a-trying to drag us under it.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: The problem of evil

Post #63

Post by oldbadger »

Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:41 am Additionally, if the mother was shot dead, she couldn't have had an NDE, she'd have had an FDE - Full Death Experience. Although NDE proponents nearly always overlook it, the "N" stands for "Near." Those who have them have not experienced "Death." Given that whatever they experience is in no way evidence of any afterlife. They have experienced life after life also known as continuing to live. I've experienced that too every day of my life... so far.

Tcg
I can't remember if I've ever had an NDE in the form of lighted tunnels etc, but I've definitely had the other kind of near death experience which I call FBE.... Full Body Evacuation.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #64

Post by oldbadger »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:44 pm Get married?
Ex spouses?
You've been unlucky then, or maybe you picked your bride for the wrong reasons? Maybe they picked you incorrectly?
My choice of 'evil', if it existed at all, would be leaders who send their armies to kill and die in other folk's countries.
Well said. I tend to avoid the term due to its religious conotations.
You said a mouthful. If we're ignorant of God's understanding of evil, can we rightly be called evil?
Oh yes......! We can definitely be called evil....sure. There's a bloke who lives rough in Canterbury and rants about the state of the World and as I gave him the price of a breakfast he told me that as far as any salvation goes I'm stuffed. So that's it.
I'm a wicked ol'badger.
Dang smart people.
Yes....... the one small joy I can have in life is knowing that all those smart'n'superior folks are destined for eternal torture; ha ha!... they're going to wish they'd been thick like me!
Yup. With religious zealots a-trying to drag us under it.
Depends where you live, I think.
For example, most women around here expect equal gender rights but they've mostly got them through brilliant legislation and so they don't rant and scream extreme feminism, but if those same women would live in the USA they'd mostly be very hot feminists.
Same with atheism here....... Many if not most folks here couldn't give a fig for any God, but in the USA they would be much hotter about it.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #65

Post by Tcg »

oldbadger wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:21 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:41 am Additionally, if the mother was shot dead, she couldn't have had an NDE, she'd have had an FDE - Full Death Experience. Although NDE proponents nearly always overlook it, the "N" stands for "Near." Those who have them have not experienced "Death." Given that whatever they experience is in no way evidence of any afterlife. They have experienced life after life also known as continuing to live. I've experienced that too every day of my life... so far.

Tcg
I can't remember if I've ever had an NDE in the form of lighted tunnels etc, but I've definitely had the other kind of near death experience which I call FBE.... Full Body Evacuation.
I'm not sure what that means, but it doesn't change my argument unless you are claiming to have actually died and come back to life. If you haven't experienced that then whatever it was it wasn't life after death. It was as I said above, continuing to live. Continuing to live tells us nothing about the nature of an afterlife or if there even is one.

That is the problem with any claims about the afterlife either for or against. Only people who have died know whether or not an afterlife exists and then only if there is one. If there is no afterlife, we won't know it.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #66

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:55 am Humans knew that even without the 10 commandments. They also know that it is ok to kill those who ask for it, and they didn't need the Bible to exemplify that. The conclusion is that the Bible was written by humans like any other, the moral codes are the same as other humans (aside putting religious Authority at the top) and the god of the Bible was made in the human image, not the other way around.
Sorry, I have no good reason to believe you.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #67

Post by Tcg »

1213 wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:37 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:55 am Humans knew that even without the 10 commandments. They also know that it is ok to kill those who ask for it, and they didn't need the Bible to exemplify that. The conclusion is that the Bible was written by humans like any other, the moral codes are the same as other humans (aside putting religious Authority at the top) and the god of the Bible was made in the human image, not the other way around.
Sorry, I have no good reason to believe you.
What good reasons do you have to not believe this?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #68

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:37 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:55 am Humans knew that even without the 10 commandments. They also know that it is ok to kill those who ask for it, and they didn't need the Bible to exemplify that. The conclusion is that the Bible was written by humans like any other, the moral codes are the same as other humans (aside putting religious Authority at the top) and the god of the Bible was made in the human image, not the other way around.
Sorry, I have no good reason to believe you.
Well, the reason is that humans in various cultures have arrived at broadly similar moralities. They also will kill, to keep order or as justified by war, just as we find in Biblical cultures.

There is no need to suppose (in the light of biological and social studies) that this is anything but a common human instinctive trait. Therefore there is no reason to credit the Bible, Biblegod or any of the associated religions as anything other than just another human - invented religion, just like the others.

Now you give me a good reason why we should think anything else. N.b, Faith is not a good reason.
Tcg wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:55 am
1213 wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:37 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:55 am Humans knew that even without the 10 commandments. They also know that it is ok to kill those who ask for it, and they didn't need the Bible to exemplify that. The conclusion is that the Bible was written by humans like any other, the moral codes are the same as other humans (aside putting religious Authority at the top) and the god of the Bible was made in the human image, not the other way around.
Sorry, I have no good reason to believe you.
What good reasons do you have to not believe this?


Tcg
:) That is the next question. If the reasons to believe my argument are good ones and there was no good reason given to not accept that, why not? Faith is not a good reason. Not knowing the reasons to be atheist, in fact, is excusable but, having heard the arguments, and Faith not being a good reason, they are indeed "Without Excuse".

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #69

Post by William »

According to the current arguments;

The Problem of Evil is recognized as strictly human behavior within nature.
Social laws are enacted to direct the flow of this evil in order that the evil does not overtake human society and become an out of control problem, affecting nature itself.

Nature - in the mean time - is neither good nor evil so there is no problem re that.

Re that, IF nature is the product of a Creator-Mind [aka "GOD"] and IF nature is neither good nor evil THEN the supposed "Problem of Evil" is simply a product of human imagination...which is to say - is not a real interpretation of The Universe - even if The Universe was created.

A supposed Creator cannot be the reason for any evil. Thus, there exists - in reality - NO "Problem of Evil."

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #70

Post by TRANSPONDER »

William wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:41 pm According to the current arguments;

The Problem of Evil is recognized as strictly human behavior within nature.
Social laws are enacted to direct the flow of this evil in order that the evil does not overtake human society and become an out of control problem, affecting nature itself.

Nature - in the mean time - is neither good nor evil so there is no problem re that.

Re that, IF nature is the product of a Creator-Mind [aka "GOD"] and IF nature is neither good nor evil THEN the supposed "Problem of Evil" is simply a product of human imagination...which is to say - is not a real interpretation of The Universe - even if The Universe was created.

A supposed Creator cannot be the reason for any evil. Thus, there exists - in reality - NO "Problem of Evil."

Image
No. You were pretty much ok up until you said IF. "IF not" (conversely) means that the problem of evil is valid. Now, I've seen this coming mainly because it is basic to theist thinking, "If God is true, then all the atheist argument fail". Yes, but IF is the claim and is a Faith claim, and not a valid hypothesis.

The correct logic is to go with the hypothesis or explanation best supported by the evidence. The evidence favours natural origins, it does not favour a creation model (legal precedent Kitzmiller vs Dover). Natural materialism is therefore the default theory, not goddunnit. The burden of proof falls on the theist to validate the IF or it has no epistemological value.

I reckon I know the thinking as it is the Faithbased illogic of the assumption of God as the given default without anything needed but the claim. No. The correct logic is to make no assumption and to consider both claims (evidence) impartially. Science has validated a lot and can provide a mechanism for a lot more. The god -claim (for any creator, that is) has little more than the claim and trying to pick holes in the science.

IF gets you nowhere. If atheism (materialism) is right, God claims fail. Simple, and unhelpful, either way. Postulating a god (creator) doesn't even validate the 'God knows best' claim because a deist creator needn't be obliged to guide or even create humans, let alone mastermind morals for them. Your 'If' case fails on many levels. I think it relies on people (generally) accepting the God -claim as the default. And that means either making sure they don't hear from us that it is illogical and invalid, or hoping that they are so indoctrinated that they will not listen to us.

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