Odd morality

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Willum
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Odd morality

Post #1

Post by Willum »

You know I find it odd.

The Ancient Greeks recognized the immorality of Zeus; who sent floods, plagues, enacted cruel transformations, etc., and the Greeks responded by labeling Zeus and the other gods immoral.
They further responded by creating a code of morality for people that did not involve deities.

The Greeks saw their gods without morals, and so created their own.

Whereas the Ancient Hebrew and modern day Judaists and Christians see identical or similar acts by their god, and rather then decry these acts as malevolent, defend them as being benevolent.

For debate: The Ancient Greeks were more mature and moral than modern Judaists and Christians.

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Purple Knight
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Re: Odd morality

Post #21

Post by Purple Knight »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:01 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:52 pmI disagree that godly power is a fallacy. If there's really an omnipotent being, you can disagree with it, you're just wrong. Even if that being simply failed to use its omniscience to be right, it can alter the fabric of the universe and make itself right. It can even plant ideas in our heads about morality that are simply wrong. There are a lot of parallels with this and a child torturing an anthill. If there was no one above the child to declare his actions immoral, they wouldn't be.
That is of course the alternative to an apologist trying to argue that an unjust and immoral god is somehow just and moral, just because His Book says so. That fact that it is powerful and can break us all and so we had better refrain from pointing out that it is unjust an immoral or else, is a not unfamiliar argument, but isn't going to convince those who can see that such a claim simply isn't true. Even if they though the god was real.

But since the evidence does not persuade the doubter (even the irreligious Theist) that a personal god exists (name your own religion) then the IF is a big If and threatening us with God's wrath if we dare to criticise what a vile, beastly and immoral creature it is, according to the Bible, when it isn't praising and flattering this creature (who is going to transfer His support to the Gentiles anyway) just makes us laugh.
It ought to persuade you more if you believe it's fiction. I believe it's almost certainly fiction and that's the biggest reason I don't have a problem with it. In a fictional universe, the author makes the rules. He decides who the good guy is. It's just bad fiction, because one of the marks of good fiction is that you don't have some "hero" who the author clearly casts as the good guy, but if he existed in our world, did those things in our world... he'd be a bad guy. But it's the author's universe and he does decide and that's the end of it.

It's a little more complicated if it's somehow all real. But I still think it holds.

For there to be objective morality, if we disagree - if I disagree with you - either you get to impose on me or I get to impose on you.

Let's say I think this Jewish God is just and moral because he uses his infinite power to cause himself to be that.

You disagree. In order for you to be right and me to be wrong, you must have moral authority I don't.

You can now use that authority to torture me and declare it right, even if I disagree.

Do you see where I get the idea that this power to be nasty to people and hurt them but have it be moral and just exists in reality?

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Re: Odd morality

Post #22

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:58 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:01 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:52 pmI disagree that godly power is a fallacy. If there's really an omnipotent being, you can disagree with it, you're just wrong. Even if that being simply failed to use its omniscience to be right, it can alter the fabric of the universe and make itself right. It can even plant ideas in our heads about morality that are simply wrong. There are a lot of parallels with this and a child torturing an anthill. If there was no one above the child to declare his actions immoral, they wouldn't be.
That is of course the alternative to an apologist trying to argue that an unjust and immoral god is somehow just and moral, just because His Book says so. That fact that it is powerful and can break us all and so we had better refrain from pointing out that it is unjust an immoral or else, is a not unfamiliar argument, but isn't going to convince those who can see that such a claim simply isn't true. Even if they though the god was real.

But since the evidence does not persuade the doubter (even the irreligious Theist) that a personal god exists (name your own religion) then the IF is a big If and threatening us with God's wrath if we dare to criticise what a vile, beastly and immoral creature it is, according to the Bible, when it isn't praising and flattering this creature (who is going to transfer His support to the Gentiles anyway) just makes us laugh.
It ought to persuade you more if you believe it's fiction. I believe it's almost certainly fiction and that's the biggest reason I don't have a problem with it. In a fictional universe, the author makes the rules. He decides who the good guy is. It's just bad fiction, because one of the marks of good fiction is that you don't have some "hero" who the author clearly casts as the good guy, but if he existed in our world, did those things in our world... he'd be a bad guy. But it's the author's universe and he does decide and that's the end of it.

It's a little more complicated if it's somehow all real. But I still think it holds.

For there to be objective morality, if we disagree - if I disagree with you - either you get to impose on me or I get to impose on you.

Let's say I think this Jewish God is just and moral because he uses his infinite power to cause himself to be that.

You disagree. In order for you to be right and me to be wrong, you must have moral authority I don't.

You can now use that authority to torture me and declare it right, even if I disagree.

Do you see where I get the idea that this power to be nasty to people and hurt them but have it be moral and just exists in reality?

:) Thank you for a nice example of Projection. I've said it before - Theist accusations of what atheists would do to theists really says what Theists would do to atheists - if they ever get the 'Authority' as you put it. This is about secular authority, not the high moral ground or even where morality comes from.

Atheists are broadly within the Humanist ambit to which not a Theists also belong, I believe; and they reckon that running a society on secularist grounds is the better way to do it. It isn't about persecuting anyone, but enabling everyone to do their thing (within the law) and I would not force my views on you (nor would i want to) and you couldn't force your views on anyone else.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #23

Post by Purple Knight »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:14 amThis is about secular authority, not the high moral ground or even where morality comes from.

Atheists are broadly within the Humanist ambit to which not a Theists also belong, I believe; and they reckon that running a society on secularist grounds is the better way to do it. It isn't about persecuting anyone, but enabling everyone to do their thing (within the law) and I would not force my views on you (nor would i want to) and you couldn't force your views on anyone else.
This secular morality has only really struggled when an oppressed minority that can't win a law, must call upon the majority to be fair to them despite gaining advantage by not supporting that fairness.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #24

Post by William »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #19]
Think of it this way: Who has more say over the definition of abhorrent? You, or a god?
Morality is Odd...

I think from a gods perspective, viewing life on Earth would not appear to be abhorrent the way it might appear to a sensitive conscious human being living so close to the 'coal-face' as it were.

I often think of the planet as having consciousness and wonder whether the planet-consciousness would see itself in the way that many humans see the planet.

It appears the only ones who are being querulous about gods overall, and immoral gods in particular, have a bee in their bonnets about the darker stuff... but it ain't all bad.

When it comes to יהוה I tend to see all the Greek gods wrapped into one - like they represent different aspects of the same entity. I see the same in how I view the Earth Entity - on another level, playing the part of יהוה and thus, playing the part of all the gods.

So what is "God" and what are "gods" really? Archetypes representing different phycological aspects of fairly conscious and intelligent human beings?

And what are human beings really? Archetypical Representations of The Earth Entity?

Mirror-Mirror...

Image

I like to try and keep mine looking well balanced and presentable...

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Re: Odd morality

Post #25

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 8:38 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:14 amThis is about secular authority, not the high moral ground or even where morality comes from.

Atheists are broadly within the Humanist ambit to which not a Theists also belong, I believe; and they reckon that running a society on secularist grounds is the better way to do it. It isn't about persecuting anyone, but enabling everyone to do their thing (within the law) and I would not force my views on you (nor would i want to) and you couldn't force your views on anyone else.
This secular morality has only really struggled when an oppressed minority that can't win a law, must call upon the majority to be fair to them despite gaining advantage by not supporting that fairness.
yeah...I get that, but I don't see that has been a struggle for secular morality, or I should say a secularist society because the struggle will only become apparent with an actual secular society., rather than an abstract theory Aside dictatorships which have the same nasty effect whether theist or atheist or of left or right, by and large, the increase in secularity has tended to be in direct proportion to the reduction of religious and temporal control. And an effect of that has tended (or so I see it) towards more rights for different people with different ideas to be allowed to lead their lives and do their thing. It is rather religious and authoritarian control that has tended to dilute the rights of minorities.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #26

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Willum wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:46 pm
The Greeks saw their gods without morals...

Whereas the Ancient Hebrew and modern day Judaists and Christians see identical or similar acts by their god, and rather then decry these acts as malevolent, defend them as being benevolent.

I disagree, there is nothing ammoral or immoral about the God of the bible. His act are depicted as entirely just and good and never is YHWH depicted as engaging in malevolent acts.


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PSALM 103:8 - Young's Literal Translation

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Re: Odd morality

Post #27

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:51 pm
Willum wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:46 pm
The Greeks saw their gods without morals...

Whereas the Ancient Hebrew and modern day Judaists and Christians see identical or similar acts by their god, and rather then decry these acts as malevolent, defend them as being benevolent.

I disagree, there is nothing ammoral or immoral about the God of the bible. His act are depicted as entirely just and good and never is YHWH depicted as engaging in malevolent acts.


RELATED POSTS

Why are pagan gods morally abhorrent?
viewtopic.php?p=991212#p991212

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, THE DIVINE NAME and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY
PSALM 103:8 - Young's Literal Translation

Merciful and gracious is Jehovah, Slow to anger, and abundant in mercy
There are several examples of acts done by or ordered by the god of the Bible which we should consider immoral. The Flood, for one, everyone was evil? And why kill all the animals as well? What had they done? The blights inflicted on the Egyptians are malicious as, since God hardened Pharoah's heart (yes, it says so) he could simply have not done so and Pharaoh would have let the israelites go. It says that, too. The slaughter of the Amalekites, the genocide of the Conquest are all immoral acts. Inaction is immoral, too, as in easy going acceptance of slavery. So what we seem to have are propaganda statements in the Bible saying how perfect and Good Biblegod is, when it is pretty clear he isn't.

The only escapes so far as I can see is to say that God's morality isn't the same as ours (in which case, what is either morality worth?) or God can do what he likes, which isn't moral either.

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Re: Odd morality

Post #28

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 5:51 pm
PSALM 103:8 - Young's Literal Translation

Merciful and gracious is Jehovah, Slow to anger, and abundant in mercy
Genesis 6:13 - NIV

So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth."
So much for mercy.


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Re: Odd morality

Post #29

Post by Tcg »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:22 am
There are several examples of acts done by or ordered by the god of the Bible which we should consider immoral. The Flood, for one, everyone was evil? And why kill all the animals as well? What had they done? The blights inflicted on the Egyptians are malicious as, since God hardened Pharoah's heart (yes, it says so) he could simply have not done so and Pharaoh would have let the israelites go. It says that, too. The slaughter of the Amalekites, the genocide of the Conquest are all immoral acts. Inaction is immoral, too, as in easy going acceptance of slavery. So what we seem to have are propaganda statements in the Bible saying how perfect and Good Biblegod is, when it is pretty clear he isn't.

The only escapes so far as I can see is to say that God's morality isn't the same as ours (in which case, what is either morality worth?) or God can do what he likes, which isn't moral either.
I for one am quite pleased that at least some humans' morality is much different than Biblegods. The women's rights movement, the LGBTQ+ rights movement, the anti-slavery movement and many others are but some examples of the beneficial result.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Odd morality

Post #30

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Tcg wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:29 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:22 am
There are several examples of acts done by or ordered by the god of the Bible which we should consider immoral. The Flood, for one, everyone was evil? And why kill all the animals as well? What had they done? The blights inflicted on the Egyptians are malicious as, since God hardened Pharoah's heart (yes, it says so) he could simply have not done so and Pharaoh would have let the israelites go. It says that, too. The slaughter of the Amalekites, the genocide of the Conquest are all immoral acts. Inaction is immoral, too, as in easy going acceptance of slavery. So what we seem to have are propaganda statements in the Bible saying how perfect and Good Biblegod is, when it is pretty clear he isn't.

The only escapes so far as I can see is to say that God's morality isn't the same as ours (in which case, what is either morality worth?) or God can do what he likes, which isn't moral either.
I for one am quite pleased that at least some humans' morality is much different than Biblegods. The women's rights movement, the LGBTQ+ rights movement, the anti-slavery movement and many others are but some examples of the beneficial result.


Tcg
I agree. I think that human morality has improved since those days, though humans haven't always moved along with it.

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