Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Diogenes
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Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Diogenes »

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #211

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:10 am The only waste of time I see is your disparaging and dismissive post that quotes him exactly zero times, some rebuttal.
To quote him I would have to watch it again and make sure that I got his words down exactly or some picky poster will object. It was not worth watching the first time as I said. He drops names. So what? I could drop names of famous people who are atheists. Who wins? The one with the biggest list or the best set of names?

His evidence was basically the Bible, with Jesus and the empty tomb as the lynch pin. He does not seem to be aware that the Bible is merely the claim, not the evidence. He goes on about atheism not offering any promises of things like ultimate justice for those who have been wronged. Ridiculous argument that hinges on wishful thinking. If you believe in God then God will be real and everything will turn out sunshine and roses. If reality is that there is no God and that death is the end, then believing or wishing it to be otherwise will change nothing. His whole argument is just pie in the sky belief with absolutely no substance behind any of it. Opinions don't qualify as evidence and that is pretty much self-evident. Anyone who finds his talk compelling is most likely a dyed-in-the-wool believer already.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #212

Post by Inquirer »

brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:03 am
Inquirer wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:10 am The only waste of time I see is your disparaging and dismissive post that quotes him exactly zero times, some rebuttal.
To quote him I would have to watch it again and make sure that I got his words down exactly or some picky poster will object.
Yes, what a burden it is being thorough and objective.
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:03 am It was not worth watching the first time as I said. He drops names. So what? I could drop names of famous people who are atheists. Who wins? The one with the biggest list or the best set of names?
This is the best you can come up with? Let me tell you something if you had been in the audience and after the lecture said what you are saying here you'd be rightly laughed out of the room by theists and atheists alike, I'm amazed you're not embarrassed to post these remarks.
brunumb wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:03 am His evidence was basically the Bible, with Jesus and the empty tomb as the lynch pin. He does not seem to be aware that the Bible is merely the claim, not the evidence. He goes on about atheism not offering any promises of things like ultimate justice for those who have been wronged. Ridiculous argument that hinges on wishful thinking. If you believe in God then God will be real and everything will turn out sunshine and roses. If reality is that there is no God and that death is the end, then believing or wishing it to be otherwise will change nothing. His whole argument is just pie in the sky belief with absolutely no substance behind any of it. Opinions don't qualify as evidence and that is pretty much self-evident. Anyone who finds his talk compelling is most likely a dyed-in-the-wool believer already.
This is quite ridiculous, objecting to what he says yet refusing to tell us what it is he actually said that upsets you so much. I've pulled Jose up before for this, attacking a paraphrased rewording of someone you dislike is not something I can respect nor something you can be proud of.

Your objections to him are seemingly just emotional objections, the facts, his arguments don't matter, just attack him anyway, he's a theist after all so must be wrong - this is terrible reasoning, but I'm no longer surprised, the more I see atheist posts like this the more confident I get in theism - at least it's a rational position.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #213

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Inquirer wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:07 am ...the more I see atheist posts like this the more confident I get in theism - at least it's a rational position.
Says the guy who thinks there's a magic man in the sky.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #214

Post by Diagoras »

We seem to have strayed somewhat from the OP, but having watched part of the Oxford Union debate as posted by Inquirer, people here might be interested in seeing the opposing view.

Dr. Michael Shermer puts the case for an evolutionary, sociological and neurological foundation for religious beliefs. That last aspect is at least fairly close to what the OP intended this debate topic to be about, so perhaps (unless being thorough is too much of a burden), those of a theistic bent will take the time to consider Dr. Shermer's conclusion.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #215

Post by Diogenes »

Diagoras wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:37 pm We seem to have strayed somewhat from the OP, but having watched part of the Oxford Union debate as posted by Inquirer, people here might be interested in seeing the opposing view.

Dr. Michael Shermer puts the case for an evolutionary, sociological and neurological foundation for religious beliefs. That last aspect is at least fairly close to what the OP intended this debate topic to be about, so perhaps (unless being thorough is too much of a burden), those of a theistic bent will take the time to consider Dr. Shermer's conclusion.
Thanks! The video you shared, deserves to be watched by all. In a very clear way he points out how natural selection has 'programmed' us to accept delusions. Those who dismissed noises and other information in the natural world became predator food. Those who paid attention and were cautious, even when it was just the wind, survived. I won't try to summarize the entire video, but the experiment with the children was telling; how they followed the rules when told there was an invisible 'watcher' observing them. They were literally taught and accepted a delusion.

Here's another Shermer video, a TED talk, much funnier. :)


BTW, I had no idea there was a re-cut version of a Katie Melua song with the lyrics "... we are 13.7 billion light years from the edge of the observable universe...." :D
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #216

Post by AquinasForGod »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #3]

There is no evidence against the idea of God existing, so there is no way to determine if the belief is false.

DSM-5 says “fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.”

What is the conflicting evidence that God in general is real? Agnostic philosophers point out that atheists and theists both lack evidence to persuade them to either side.

If there is no convincing evidence to persuade an agnostic to become an atheist, then there is no conflicting evidence of God existing.

This means it can be rational to believe in God. It can be rational to disbelieve in God. It depends on the reasons.

Delusion is when you hold a belief that actually conflicts with evidence, such as you think you can levitate and people point out that no, you are just leaping while in lotus position. But, but, look how long I was in the hair for. Yeah, you were off the ground for the exact amount of time gravity allows, which is why you either leaped higher or farther. If that person refuses to accept the evidence that they are not levitating, then they are delusional.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #217

Post by Clownboat »

AquinasForGod wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:53 am There is no evidence against the idea of God existing, so there is no way to determine if the belief is false.
Careful, this kind of reasoning will have you believing in fairies, unicorns and all sorts of other things that we have no evidence for.
These words are a weak justification for believing in any god and even worse when there is a specific god being argued for.

I do admit, for all we know, there could be millions of fairies, unicorns and gods, but I will await evidence before applying faith to justify what I have decided to believe in as faith is the pathway to all the gods. It is also a required mechanism in order to believe in something that is false, note that I'm not saying faith = false.
What is the conflicting evidence that God in general is real?

There is no evidence for the gods, to conflict. They could be real or not real, just like fairies or unicorns. I'm leaning towards them all being human inventions, how about you?
Now claimed traits of a god concept can conflict, like a perfect god making mistakes or a loving god being unloving.
Agnostic philosophers point out that atheists and theists both lack evidence to persuade them to either side.
It doesn't take a philosopher to realize that evidence cannot be provided for things that don't exist. Atheists are not proposing a thing, therefore no evidence would be required for this non thing. Religions are proposing a thing, but lets be honest, most are religions for geographical reasons and that surely would not convince a thinking atheist.
If there is no convincing evidence to persuade an agnostic to become an atheist, then there is no conflicting evidence of God existing.

If there is no evidence for the gods, conflict is impossible. No conflict suggest no evidence and no evidence suggests no gods.
This means it can be rational to believe in God. It can be rational to disbelieve in God. It depends on the reasons.

A lack of a reason to believe in a concept is reason enough to suspend belief.
Not being able to disprove something (for all we know, because it doesn't exist) is not a valid reason to form a belief that a thing is real.
Delusion is when you hold a belief that actually conflicts with evidence
Like believing that snakes/donkeys spoke, or that fish and bread were conjured, or that a man lived in the belly of a fish/whale for days, or that hundreds of dead bodies got out of their graves and walked Jerusalem and on and on?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

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If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #218

Post by William »

[Replying to Clownboat in post #217]
I will await evidence before applying faith
Can you provide an example where faith is applied after evidence is supplied?

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #219

Post by Clownboat »

William wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:53 am [Replying to Clownboat in post #217]
I will await evidence before applying faith
Can you provide an example where faith is applied after evidence is supplied?
No as I don't employ faith in my life. I was only using the word faith in my reply because I am replying to those that do employ faith.

To be more accurate, I should have said that 'I will await evidence for fairies, gods and unicorns before forming a belief about them'.
As I said, 'faith is the pathway to all the gods and it is also a required mechanism in order to believe in something that is false'. Therefore, faith is something to be avoided not encouraged.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #220

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:49 pm
In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?
I can't speak for other religious beliefs...but as far as Christian theism; no, belief in Christian theism is not delusional, based on the positive reasons we (in my opinion) have to believe in it.

Now, if that isn't good enough for you, then I will ask..

Are certain scientific (and/or atheistic) beliefs delusional? You know, things like..

1. Macroevolution
2. The multiverse theory
3. Abiogenesis
4. Certain interpretations of Quantum Physics
5. Panspermia

I personally find all 5 of those beliefs delusional...and I've yet met anyone who can reasonably defend either belief.

Keyword; reasonably.
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