The problem of evil

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William
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The problem of evil

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Post by William »

Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?
The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}
Last edited by William on Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #91

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:04 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:18 am [Replying to oldbadger in post #85]

That may be post of the year. It points up another thing - which I touched on in the thread on when the sun was created - Bible apologists so often disregard what the Bible actually says and prefer what I call 'the ghost Bible' - a mental version of the Bible that says what they prefer. When one points out 'The Bible does not say that' we get 'interpretation'. Which can be anything from translation -shopping to 'metaphorically true'.
Preachers're God's lawyers - paid to paint their client in the best light, regardless of his guilt or innocence.

A flooding of the planet gets sugar coated with, "But he had ol' Noah there build that boat."
Oh yes. It's not for nothing I refer to 'Lawyer -tricks' at times. because the nature of Faithbased Christian apologetics is not to use the evidence to get to the truth, but to fiddle the evidence to win because they already Know the truth on Faith. Excuses and misdirection as you cited above. Though it's more either saying it wasn't wrong because they were all sinners and had it coming or it was wrong and God regretted having to do it (which is what the Bible actually says) but They really drowned themselves, not God. This is just bamboozlement to throw dust in our eyes. It doesn't even look at the inversion of probability so that denial of the evidence means a win for them, or the denial of losing such as the Flounce, the deep dive and apologetics of the 3rd kind:..
1. argue on the evidence

2 fiddle the evidence

3 Sauce (cheek).

I like cheek O:) (1) where we see impudent strings of snarky comments, (such as not too long ago when persistent pointless remarks about atheists were posted for no apparent reason other than to irritate) and I don't know whether it's intended to 'start a fight' so the Theist can justify a flounce, or to score irrelevant points (needle an atheist for Jesus) and supposedly win enough cheap point to pretend they didn't lose. I can see how the theist mind works, but I don't pretend to be able to put my head in that position.

(1) the religious mindset is more of a fascinating puzzle than the Bible, which is pretty much done and dusted. The only problem being to get the people to hear and realise it when the whole system is super-weighted to not let the result get out. The massive PR still has people believe that religion is good for us even if it isn't true, and it really ain't the done thing to debunk it.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #92

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

Occasionally I pop into threads somewhere in the middle or at the end, and come across a comment to respond to, though it might be a bit off-topic or out of context, and if so, I apologize, but the following is one such post:
oldbadger wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 2:20 am But, No again...... in the bible you can read how God told the Israelites just how nasty he can be to folks, and it was him who caused all that suffering to Job because he ordered the devil to do all that stuff, you know. And the devil obeyed god's every order.....
God did not order the Adversary to do those things. He temporarily removed the hedge of protection He had placed around Job and his household, allowed the Adversary to do as he wanted, but put limitations on how far the Adversary was permitted to go (not permitting the Adversary to kill Job).

9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12 [The LORD] said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
[/color]

**

Then [the LORD] said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

6 [The LORD] said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.

7 So Satan went out from the presence of [the LORD] and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.


God did not allow this to win some kind of bet; He did not need this for Himself; He allowed this to let Job answer for himself. God knew the outcome before it happened; God KNEW Job (blameless and upright, no one like him in all the earth); God knew that Job would prove the Adversary and his accusation against Job wrong (the accusation the Adversary makes against all men is that we will 'curse God and die', if we have trouble and suffering, including in our own flesh.) But now it is in public view; everyone can see that the Adversary was wrong, that Job maintained his integrity and his faith.

It served a purpose, and helps us to see what is really going on behind the scenes. God may remove His hedge of protection around us for a time, so that we can answer for ourselves, against the accusation the Adversary makes against us. Trouble and suffering and loss happens in this world anyway (and if we are Christian, we must expect trouble in this world, because Christ said we WOULD have trouble in this world), but we also have the Adversary who does his best to get us to 'curse God and die'.

Yet we have the example and words from Christ (Jaheshua), that even though we will have trouble in this world, to take heart, because He has overcome the world.



Just wanted to clear that up.

(the flood also served a purpose and SAVED lives, even though in the interim, lives were temporarily lost)

(And all God has to do to 'create darkness', is to separate light from the darkness. This is what God did, and this is good.)

{Consider also Pharaoh (of the ten plagues Pharaoh). Some people tend to blame God for hardening Pharaoh's heart. But Pharaoh hardened his own heart against God from the start, in choosing to reject God in the first place, in how he treated the people of God, in not permitting them to go and worship God in the wilderness. And Pharaoh did not 'reject' God in the sense that he did not know this foreign God of Israel, so it wasn't his fault. Pharaoh knew. Joseph, son of Israel, ruled all of Egypt 400 years earlier, and his God was known. Many good things came from what happened there as well, and a great multitude of people recognized that Pharaoh was 'false' and could not protect them, and that God - the God of Israel - was TRUE (as are His promises and His words).}




Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: The problem of evil

Post #93

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #92]

Image

In the story, who is GOD trying to teach?

I think it is obviously Satan, and the GOD must really love Satan enough to allow Job the discomfort inflicted upon him, in order for the opportunity to have Satan learn something new.
Satan is the one set up to test GOD in a sense, and GOD uses Satan as a type of mirror which can be adjusted to give a less distorted image.

GOD wants to bring Satan up to speed on the way things are {under the circumstances} and when I read the interaction I get the feeling these two are not enemies but co-creators and humans are part of that invention or mechanism in which the pair can play and wrestle it out in the relative safety of the physical universe.

Like Father and Son - roughing it up a bit...

Image

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #94

Post by oldbadger »

tam wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:36 pm Peace to you,
And to you, Tam.
God did not order the Adversary to do those things. He temporarily removed the hedge of protection He had placed around Job and his household, allowed the Adversary to do as he wanted, but put limitations on how far the Adversary was permitted to go (not permitting the Adversary to kill Job).
I read your whole post, Tam, and the verses that you quoted show that the Devil obeyed God's every wish as was explained or wished.
No harm came to Job.


I find it difficult to understand how Christianity believes so strongly in a Devil, a wicked enemy of God's, a real tangible entity, but how it doesn't pay too much attention to demons, maybe tangible demons? In many churches it also pushes Christian Spiritualism away, and spiritual healing.

There's only one Power around here, imo, and that is the unleashed benevolence, tragedy and chaos that is Mother Nature....that's how I like to think of and call it. We all bend down to her mostly every day, and we mostly follow her every wish. A hawk stooping upon a rabbit is not an evil entity, but simply doing what it does....... and so it is with everything, in my opinion.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #95

Post by Tcg »

oldbadger wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:34 am
No harm came to Job.
A slight correction, no physical harm came to Job. He lost ten children (I think that's the number) in the events God allowed. He got ten replacements eventually, and in the story, we're supposed to think that makes the loss of the first ten okay, but it's not like replacing silverware or something. I can't imagine the loss of even one child, much less ten. My sister lost her daughter when my niece was 21 years old. She was never the same after that.

If there were a God who allowed this, one who could have stopped it, it is a monster.


Tcg
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Re: The problem of evil

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

Obviously, some are going to see Job as a made - up story, not a real event. Whichever way, it does not show God in a good light. To start off, Satan needles God into testing Job to see whether he will fall from devotion when things get bad. And God lets Satan do the bad. If he doesn't do it himself, he knows what Satan will do - anything short of killing Job, which shows that the writers were trying to cover all bases even though Satan won't kill Job because then he would lose his challenge.

Essentially it is the bite the bullet message - God can do whatever he likes. But that is not morality, it is power. And, not for the first time, God shows that He may be supremely powerful and good at making stuff, but he ain't too smart. Aside that the rebel angel should not be sparring with God over coffee and Garibaldis, but presiding over the furnaces God had created because he knew man would fall because that was part of the plan, he should have said that Man was sinful - even the righteous ones. So what if Job falls from faith as soon as things get tough? Even angels rebelled, so nobody can be expected to suffer the problem of evil (bad happens to believers as if God didn't care, or was powerless) and keep on grovelling as though he's been given a prize. God could and should have reminded Satan that he wasn't born yesterday and kicked him out - as he does after he'd lost his bet. Yes he's powerful enough to do what he likes to Satan, but Satan has won and God is just a bad loser.

And the most sickening part is when God, to make himself feel better - not Job - gives him a new family and all his wealth back. But it isn't his family; they're gone. It reminds me of Stalin having the wife of one of his gofors killed, and saying 'Don't worry, we'll get you a new wife'. That's supposed to make him feel better and go on grovelling? That's what we have here. It defeats the whole point or rather the attempt to cover up the point as not every faithful person gets their stuff back even if they don't curse God.

It is the problem of evil and why it a top deconverter because no god that was in control would do it as badly as that.

The excuses and cover ups don't work, neither in Job nor in the apologetic that attempt to explain the problem of evil away.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #97

Post by oldbadger »

Tcg wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:07 am
oldbadger wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:34 am
No harm came to Job.
A slight correction, no physical harm came to Job. He lost ten children (I think that's the number) in the events God allowed. He got ten replacements eventually, and in the story, we're supposed to think that makes the loss of the first ten okay, but it's not like replacing silverware or something. I can't imagine the loss of even one child, much less ten. My sister lost her daughter when my niece was 21 years old. She was never the same after that.

If there were a God who allowed this, one who could have stopped it, it is a monster.


Tcg
Sold. I accept that God is recorded to have done horrific things to folks.
I'd be shocked silly of I actually believed in
God

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #98

Post by Tcg »

Tcg wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:07 am
oldbadger wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:34 am
No harm came to Job.
A slight correction, no physical harm came to Job. He lost ten children (I think that's the number) in the events God allowed. He got ten replacements eventually, and in the story, we're supposed to think that makes the loss of the first ten okay, but it's not like replacing silverware or something. I can't imagine the loss of even one child, much less ten. My sister lost her daughter when my niece was 21 years old. She was never the same after that.

If there were a God who allowed this, one who could have stopped it, it is a monster.


Tcg
Well, I've got to correct my own assertion. Wasn't Job afflicted with boils or something during this bet between God and Satan? It's been a long time since I read this play. In any case, God doesn't get a free pass simply because he didn't actively kill the ten children directly or give Job the boils.

A being who has the ability to stop violence but rather allows it, is evil.


Tcg
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #99

Post by tam »

Peace still,
William wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:38 am [Replying to tam in post #92]

Image

In the story, who is GOD trying to teach?
Well, the example is there to help us (man). But the account PUBLICLY rebutted the PUBLIC accusation that the Adversary had made (as pertains to Job), showing anyone watching or listening that the Adversary was wrong, was proven wrong. The account allowed Job to answer for himself, so there can be no question as to his integrity.

Satan is the one set up to test GOD in a sense, and GOD uses Satan as a type of mirror which can be adjusted to give a less distorted image.
Satan isn't testing God. This was not a test for God. Satan is not a mirror for God, or a co-creator, or even a Son (the Son is Christ < - the actual and true image of God). Satan is OUR accuser, OUR adversary, and he seeks to destroy us (mankind, and in particular, anyone who belongs to Christ, to God). He is an enemy.



Peace again.
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Re: The problem of evil

Post #100

Post by tam »

May you have peace,
oldbadger wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:34 am
tam wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:36 pm Peace to you,
And to you, Tam.
Thank you!
God did not order the Adversary to do those things. He temporarily removed the hedge of protection He had placed around Job and his household, allowed the Adversary to do as he wanted, but put limitations on how far the Adversary was permitted to go (not permitting the Adversary to kill Job).
I read your whole post, Tam, and the verses that you quoted show that the Devil obeyed God's every wish as was explained or wished.
No harm came to Job.
Did you see that God did not order the Adversary to destroy Job's belongings or to kill his children, or take his health? There is no suggestion that God wished for those things to happen. He gave Satan permission to do as Satan wished - but set some limitations on how far Satan could go.
I find it difficult to understand how Christianity believes so strongly in a Devil, a wicked enemy of God's, a real tangible entity, but how it doesn't pay too much attention to demons, maybe tangible demons?


I don't know how to answer for "Christianity" (the religion), though I think your observation might be different in observing different sects. Both exist (the Adversary and demons). We are also warned about lying spirits, and are told to test the inspired expression, because not every spirit or inspired expression is from God. (Test all claims/expressions against love - nothing true will be against love; and test them also against Christ, who is the Truth and who speaks the truth.)
In many churches it also pushes Christian Spiritualism away, and spiritual healing.
Well, religion does not tend to be spiritual. Religion is more about walking by SIGHT (rather than being about walking by FAITH). But Christ is the Spirit. God is Spirit. No religion today is from God (and Christ did not start a new religion), but instead we are meant to be worshiping in spirit and in truth (in/through Christ, the Spirit, and in truth).

There's only one Power around here, imo, and that is the unleashed benevolence, tragedy and chaos that is Mother Nature....that's how I like to think of and call it. We all bend down to her mostly every day, and we mostly follow her every wish.
To the bold: to a point, perhaps... but I think if we followed nature's every 'wish', then there would be far fewer deaths from natural 'disasters' (called so mostly just because of the loss of life).
A hawk stooping upon a rabbit is not an evil entity, but simply doing what it does.......


Agreed.
and so it is with everything, in my opinion.
On that I must disagree. A hawk is hunting food to survive. It is necessary for the hawk to survive. It is doing what it does, as you said..

But going out and harming others (murder, rape, bearing false witness, etc)... those are bad/evil things... and there is no comparison with the hawk hunting the rabbit. I'm not making a judgment against the person at all, but those things are bad/evil (<- synonyms).


Peace again to you!
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